Is Mr. Money Mustache Ruining Your Marriage?

Mrs. Frugalwoods July 17, 2014, 7:32 am

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  Michelle July 17, 2014, 8:06 am

  I took offense with that as well. As an earlier commenter said, I really hope this was just a very talented troll because women can enjoy reading MMM as well!

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    L July 17, 2014, 8:28 am

    I agree with Michelle. I love MMM! I’m the one more into your blog than my husband is. Don’t listen to her!

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      Brittany July 17, 2014, 11:31 am

      Add me to the list of women who are outraged by this woman blaming her weakness on her gender. I’ve known plenty of men who spend absurd amounts of money on gadgets, sports equipment, cars, and, yes, even clothes. My brother has over 70 pairs of shoes…I have 8, and I still think that’s too many. In my marriage, I’m the one who takes care of all of our finances and investments. My husband is constantly frustrated that instead of running our clothes through a dryer, I dry them on a wire rack (that has more to do with my desire to live an earth-friendly lifestyle than to save money, but it does save money!). I will challenge any man to a competition of who can travel lighter, take less trash out to the curb every week, and utilize the resources of their local public library the best, for I am an expert in all of those and many more mustachian ideals. My gender is not a weakness.

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        theFIREstarter July 24, 2014, 3:53 am

        I am a Mustachian of the male variety but know plenty of blokes that are the spendy one in their relationships. As well as plenty of ladies, as well as plenty of relationships where both are spendy!

        I think if you’ve spent any amount of time reading this and similar themed blogs, and then changing your perspective, philosphy, and behaviour to reflect the concepts presented, then you start to forget how retarded your old and now what you may call “normal people’s” views actually are on life.
        As MMM pointed out in the update, this is how 95% of America and the UK still think, but they’ll soon come round to our way of thinking. If not by choice, then eventually when resources really start to run out.

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    Diedra B July 17, 2014, 12:42 pm

    me four

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      pogo July 17, 2014, 1:25 pm

      the letter writer sounds like a throwback to the 1950s woman. Get with the times! We as a planet cannot afford to continue living like that, or with buying into stereotypes.

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      Rachel July 17, 2014, 5:11 pm

      While I agree the the email writer perpetuated some serious sexist stereotypes, I do think that certain elements of Mustachianism fail to account for those who lack male privilege. A woman riding a bike risks assault in a way that is much less likely than for a man, the MMM budgets that I’ve seen in previous posts don’t appear to account for the costs of birth control (which isn’t universal for all women, of course, but is a significant expense for those uterus-havers whose life is such that they require it), and for those who are working in an office setting, definitions of professionalism are gendered in a way that makes it more expensive for women to meet them (from the cost of pantyhose to the products needed to produce a “professional” hairstyle). None of that precludes frugality, by any means, but it may contribute to her impression that MMM is a blog for men.

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        Mr. Money Mustache July 17, 2014, 5:29 pm

        I propose that you start with the assumption that women have no disadvantages at all (whether that is really true or not), and design your life from that perspective instead.

        After all, plenty of the woman readers sitting right next to you reading this still ride bikes in all seasons, representing most cities, states and countries. Any worthwhile men voluntarily pay equally for any contraception in which they participate. Pantyhose, while inexpensive, are not a universal requirement for any career. And careers themselves are something that can be freely changed as well. And finally, people of either gender have been known to cut and maintain their own hair pretty much for free.

        You don’t necessarily have to do any of these things to become financially independent, but in that quest it definitely helps to assume that you can do, or avoid doing, anything you decide is important.

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          Rhonda July 17, 2014, 11:23 pm

          I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post! In fact I read it twice simply for the humor factor.
          It is one’s difference in perception that leads her to believe that she isn’t able to live the life she imagines. We all have different perceptions on what frugality means to them. I am a woman, am soft AND am on the road to financial independence! It’s a matter of choice I make all on my own though, and thus far dont’ have to worry about anyone else spending my hard earned dollars but me. I can see where this woman would like a bit of “fun” money, and if all things balance, why not? As you’ve stated MMM, you live a lavish lifestyle even throughout the building of your small empire, and never felt “without.” It’s your perception about things & acquisition of freedom that enabled you to save where you could, but not deprive yourself of some of life’s pleasures. It’s all about balance & perception. And in the end FREEDOM to choose the life you want to live!
          Thank you for this post! I feel it has been one of the best so far!

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          LaPriel August 10, 2014, 11:53 am

          “FREEDOM to choose the life you want to live!”

          It is interesting how we all read the same words, but our life experiences change the way we interpret what is written.
          For me, the above statement seems to capture what the reader was saying in her letter. I didn’t choose this life style, my husband did. When one feels forced and pressured into anything, they usually fight back. “You can’t make me”.

          MMM, I love your part two post about this. In fact, I read it out loud to my 16 yrs old daughter. I told her it had some very important tips about relationships in it. It amazes me how two people fall in love, get married and yet have never talked about their goals and expectations in life.

          I hope this couple can civilly sit down together and talk about their goals and expectations in life and make appropriate compromises.

          One of the things I like about MMM is that I can live the principles at any level of luxury that my husband and I choose.

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          Melissa July 18, 2014, 12:06 am

          I agree with Rachel. MMM, it seems like you don’t quite understand her point. While I agree with your philosophy and practice frugality and minimalism in my life, I am also very aware that I am privileged enough to be able to do so. MMM you sometimes make comments that are alienating to people who may have come from different cultural perspectives. I suggest you consider a few things:

          1. As Rachel noted above, being a woman sometimes mean you risk assault in a different way. In my years commuting on a bike, I’ve been cat-called in threatening ways (example: “Hey baby, your ass looks good up there” followed by “Suck my dick, bitch” when I don’t respond. I’ve even been groped while on my bike. I keep riding, but I wouldn’t blame any woman who would avoid riding after a similar experience, especially if she has experienced sexual assault/trauma in the past. It is easy for a man to say “assume that women have no disadvantages at all,” but that ignores the reality that many women face. A women reading your comment might think “Well, this guy is dismissing my reality, therefore his writing isn’t for me.”

          You can encourage women to bike without dismissing their legitimate concerns. I do it all the time!

          2. Pantyhose etc. Forgive me, but your comment about pantyhose is a little ignorant. In some conservative professions, in conservative areas of the country, pantyhose is defacto required, and pants are discouraged. If you google “pantyhose dress code lawyers” or something like that, you can see evidence of that. Of course, I think that is ridiculously sexist and old-fashioned, but I am lucky enough to not work in that world. But it is ok to acknowledge that some people DO have to function within that culture! We can’t all live in liberal areas.

          Not that pantyhose requirements necessarily keep a woman from riding a bike to work! But it does makes things a little more difficult for her- do you see?

          3. On that topic, it unfortunately is a fact that in many professions, women are judged on their appearances more than men. A few studies have come out recently showing that women who wear makeup are seen as more “competent” (ex: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html?_r=0).

          Again, I am lucky enough to work in a city and a profession where I can show up to work sweaty and makeupless, and even take advantage of the shower there if needed. But I acknowledge that many, many women don’t have that advantage. Additionally, I am young, white, thin, and relatively conventionally attractive. It is easy for me to look “presentable.” My hair is straight and thin, and I can cut it myself easily. However, a person of color, or an older person, is working against cultural prejudices that enforce different standards on them in order to look professional.

          Again, this doesn’t keep a person from commuting via bike, but it makes it more difficult. You have a whole series of strategies to navigate, which can be overwhelming, especially if you have no role models to help you, and your biking seems strange to everyone around you.

          4. “Any worthwhile men voluntarily pay equally for any contraception.” This statement is true, but it is an example of your tendency to make alienating statements. You are essentially saying “This message is only for men, or women who are in a stable relationship with a worthwhile man. ” I mean, what about the single women? What about the poor women who work for Hobby Lobby? What about women who are in a relationship with non-worthwhile men? Do realize that there are many many women out there for whom the cost of birth control is a burden?

          It is ok to acknowledge that truth! It doesn’t mean your philosophy is wrong! It doesn’t mean that Mustachianism can’t work for those people! But jeez, try to expand your perspective a little- not everyone has a supportive partner to help pay for their birth control.

          5. “Careers can be freely changed” I’m not even going to touch this one. Privilege. Choices. They are not distributed equally.

          I know you mean to encourage people to overcome barriers to mustachianism. But often it seems like you are dismissing the fact that barriers exist at all. And overlooking the fact that those barriers are higher for people who are not educated white males living in a liberal culture.

          Don’t get me wrong, I disagree with the letter writer in almost every way. But I do think there are some valid criticisms of the way your blog comes off, which Rachel said much more succinctly above. I think you could reach a lot more people if you considered those criticisms.

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          Jeanette July 18, 2014, 6:53 am

          Melissa,

          I am sorry if mentioning anything about assault has brought up any hostile feelings that no one can understand but those that have been assaulted.

          I don’t believe MMM is so caulious of a human being that he could not fathom the fear, uncertainty, sadness, or the million of other feelings women and men experience when they have been sexually assaulted. From a fellow assaulted-ee, I don’t feel like your comment can speak for other women or men who have been sexually assaulted. Those of us who have can choose our lives moving on after the event. Everyone pushes through their hardships in different ways but to suggest that we are incapable of moving on, to the point that we are afraid to ride a bike to work in fear of being assaulted makes me sad that your faith of human endurance is so low. I believe there are men and women who are stronger and can overcome their adversities.

          The second point of pantyhose. They are relatively inexpensive, but people can make their own choices. They are not bound by their prisoners (employment). If a woman is “forced” to have to wear pantyhose at a job, well, then its time to find another office to work at. I don’t know much about mandatory wear but I have never worked at a job – corporate or small time – that REQUIRED TO THE STRICISTICS OF STRICT DRESS CODE. And if they did, well, CHANGE JOBS.

          I have responded to Rachel about being judge on your appearance. WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH? Why do you let employers have that much power over your person? Of course, I am not talking about the extreme of coming into work smelly, holey dirty clothes, but there is a middle way that women and men can be hygienically fresh, clean, and presentable and classic, without having to fall victim of feeling like “its a man’s world and I have to dress for him”. You have power, babe, more than you know.

          Don’t condemn MMM about the mistreatment of people of color vs societal norms. People need to change and they have the power to do so. It is our responsibility as a people.

          People have a choice of employers, they don’t have to work at Hobby Lobby.

          Birth Control is NOT expensive. Actually, if you want, get an IUD. I only had to pay $100 out of the normal $1000 (thanks Obama) for mine and thats 13 years of automatic “no babies for me”.

          It just sounds like a lot of complainey pants here. Own your own life. There are choices, you can choose where you live, work, who you do business with, etc. It may be harder for some more than others but it can be done.

          Plus, someone talking about sexism and being a problem, you have stated, “white, privileged, liberal male”. Comments like that don’t help end racism, sexism, or classism.

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          Eric July 18, 2014, 7:58 am

          Mustachianism is just like any other dogma. You can pick apart the words of the prophet, crying foul over perceived gender bias, or eating pork, letting dogs in the house, or wearing clothes comprised of two materials, or you can get down to the root, to what the Purpose behind the text is. In this case, it’s embracing and developing your own strength. Strength of frugality, of character, of body and mind – being able to move beyond the complainypants within and owning your issues, the hurdles you’ve overcome, with quiet dignity and grace.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vCm8e1at1I

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          Ginger July 18, 2014, 9:53 am

          I really do agree with Melissa. I don’t bike to work because of the area I have to drive to get to work and I have a young child. That does not stop me from taking a lot of your ideas and using them, but the idea that I am as safe as a male is foolish. One of my coworkers was raped after leaving from work late, right outside our building door. My husband NEVER feels unsafe walking out of the building though. There are differences that we need to account for, but those differences don’t stop us from being frugal.

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          V July 18, 2014, 10:09 am

          I agree with many of Melissa’s points and she underlines many of the problems I have with this blog. I often find my appreciation of his advice suffers because he marginalizes and disregards the circumstances of other who dissent.

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          Christine July 18, 2014, 12:25 pm

          Awesome comment, Melissa. You expressed my thoughts exactly. I also read MMM pretty often and believe my life embodies mostly frugal philosophies. I have also felt, though, the tendency of this blog to be dismissive about the real obstacles people face to adopting many of the recommended practices. I think that arguments (such as MMM’s) are much more persuasive if they admit their limitations. For me, being frugal *is* a sacrifice, even while it allows me to sort out what’s really important in my life. For example, I live in an expensive area, but it’s also where all my friends are. I’m an introvert, and it takes me a long time to make good friends, and the ones I’ve made are extremely important to me. I know I can move to a cheaper place and maybe make new friends, but to assume that this wouldn’t be a major sacrifice is insultingly blase. That wasn’t the best example, but it’s the one that’s been weighing most on my mind lately.

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          Nick July 18, 2014, 1:15 pm

          you lost me at “What about the poor women who work for Hobby Lobby?”

          Check the facts. HL pays for 17 forms of contraception. The only forms they don’t pay for are abortive treatments (e.g. Plan B).

          As for the women in relationships with “non-worthwhile men”; I would say they have deeper issues that should be addressed before the content on MMM blogs.

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          Marie July 18, 2014, 1:25 pm

          Melissa, this is SO GOOD! Melissa for president!!

          It doesn’t mean you’re wrong, it just doesn’t hurt to acknowledge differences sometimes.

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          Jack Nickle July 19, 2014, 11:32 pm

          Melissa: I feel the takeaway from your post is that the disadvantaged have the most to gain from following MMMs advice.

          The truth is you live in a really bad area if you are likely to get sexually assaulted while cycling. The vast majority of the US is NOT LIKE THAT. Following MMMs advice and living frugally will allow you to save enough to move.

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          lizzie July 20, 2014, 3:06 am

          Melissa, that was a really good comment.

          Jack Nickle, the majority of the US is indeed like that: according to the CDC and the National Institute for Justice, one in six American women will be a victim of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime: https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

          Note that that is counting only rape or attempted rape, not all the myriad other types of sexual assault and battery, not to mention verbal harassment and other threatening behavior that just about every woman who has ever existed in public has experienced (you might want to ckeck out the tag #YesAllWomen to read about women’s experiences with this).

          I am an avid bike commuter, so please know that I am not saying that women can’t bike. But it is incredibly frustrating when men are dismissive about women’s legitimate concerns for safety. Women are drilled from birth that the world is not safe for them, that it is their job to keep themselves safe, and that if a woman fails to do so a whole chorus of “helpful” people will be there to explain why she should have done something different to prevent her own assault. In fact you are participating in a preemptive form of this, by suggesting that women just move to some hypothetical place in America where sexual assaults do not occur. That is a fantasyland that does not exist.

          And here’s the kicker: when women take this message (and the real prevalence of violence and harassment against them) to heart, they are told dismissively that their concerns aren’t really real or important. I don’t know if this is really possible, but I’m asking you to just try for a little while to imagine what that must be like.

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          Erin E July 21, 2014, 11:52 am

          +1 on the fact that Melissa’s comment hits the nail on the head.

          I’m another female MMM reader – I’m the one getting my husband on board. The fact that Melissa has pointed out a few ways that the MMM perspective can be limiting is not a bad thing. It just means that there are many more possibilities for blog topics, guest posts and other avenues for introducing different perspectives ABOUT Mustachianism. I would be thrilled to read guest posts from women, from people of color, from people of different socioeconomic statuses, etc. The point now is how to make this general lifestyle work for folks of all walks of life.

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          Jack Nickle July 22, 2014, 7:05 am

          Hi Lizzie. I’m not saying that women don’t get raped.

          I’m saying that the likelihood of getting raped cycling to/from work is in fact quite low (in most parts of the US).

          Most rapes are carried out by someone you know in/around the home or an acquaintances home.

          I’d argue you are more likely to get raped driving, walking, or taking public transport. In fact 1 in 12 rapes takes place in a parking garage:

          https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

          I also don’t need to imagine what violence and harassment are like for women. I’ve been a victim of violence and harassment. In fact men are more likely, by a wide margin, to be victims of violent crime than women (including murder, harassment, robbery, and assault).

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          meagain July 23, 2014, 11:49 am

          Thank you Melissa. That was so well-put, true, and respectful. The issue of privilege is a huge one mmm needs to address, as much as I love this blog and philosophy.

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          frugalnoggin July 24, 2014, 2:36 pm

          TO MELISSA: YES! Eloquently said. I have been an open and rabidly proselytizing mustachian ever since my introduction to MMM about 8 months ago (70% savings rate and climbing, baby!), but I am sometimes hesitant to introduce the blog to female friends because of its occasional blind spots re: privilege. I think a healthy dose of feminism can only make mustachianism stronger.

          TO MY FELLOW MALE MUSTACHIANS: WAAAAH! WAAAAH! That smart lady pointed out how easy I have it and it made me feel guilty and uncomfortable in ways I don’t fully understand! Waaah, my self-congratulatory worldview is threatened by the notion that 100% of my success might not come from my own hard work! Waaah, I haven’t gotten over that time a girl beat me up at recess and all the boys made fun of me, waaaaah!!! Suck it up, shut up, and listen to wisdom when you hear it; you might learn a thing or two. I love you though. Bro hugs.

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          EmmaS August 4, 2014, 1:29 pm

          I’ve been reading MMM for years now (it’s set as my homepage) and this is the first time I’ve felt moved to come out of my lurking to comment. My comment is this: Everything you said, Melissa. Everything.

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          Elise W August 6, 2014, 3:35 pm

          +1 to Melissa’s comment. Lady here: I used to be an every-day reader of this blog. Although I’ve kept the great influence of MMM in my financial life, I’ve stopped reading more than once a month because the writing tone (and some of the financial advice) is so narrowly aimed at white men.

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          ams January 2, 2015, 11:13 pm

          Yes! I totally agree, and am thrilled to finally have stumbled over a comment thread like this on MMM! I have been reading this blog for several years now, and also have stopped reading as often due to a troubling lack of awareness re: racial, gender and economic privilege. Don’t even get me started on the forums. That is just a hostile place for women, full stop. I hope MMM is reading this, and taking some of it to heart. I am a woman doctor, and believe me, once you start really hearing the life stories and circumstances of broad swaths of the population, you simply cannot continue to think in this “I owe all my successes to meee and my badassity!” way. People’s realities are FUCKED UP. The fact that this blog is alienating even educated, stable, middle class women is telling.

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          Call Me Cheap February 15, 2018, 8:38 am

          “educated white males living in a liberal culture”?

          Fast forward several years and you will find that Google has been sued for discriminating against white males. Apparently it is company policy to prioritize job candidates who are women, minorities, etc.

          Companies in Silicon Valley are bending over backward to hire non-white non-males. It is not an advantage there to look like MMM.

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          Jeanette July 18, 2014, 6:25 am

          I agree with MMM.

          I believe Rachel has fallen victim of what society wants to accept women in a business setting instead of what she or he wants.

          Personally, from my own experience, I work in a huge corporate setting. I tend to be very causal (and its allowed) and natural. I stick to neutral colors and basic ensembles. Collared button shirt, slacks, dress shoes, belts, pencil skirts (I believe French men and women follow this fashion sense). I mix and match. I don’t wear jewelry – it makes me feel freer and less of a hassle worrying about fidgeting with it. Not that I don’t have pieces at home but they were purchased second-hand and used on special occasions.

          I don’t dye my hair (Silver Fox, baby!), wear minimal makeup (this gives me a load off my mine from worrying about smudges or having to touch up) and I don’t “do” my hair. I wash it and slick it back, and let it air dry. I do cut my own hair and my SO from watching tutorials on YouTube. Keeping it a basic style helps.

          I carpool to work for right now but I am looking forward to using my bike more.

          I feel confident and free. And nobody at work has a changed perception of me because I don’t look like a movie star. Actually, it is quite the opposite. People see that I have a lot of confidence in myself and I still maintain a sense of respect among my peers. It’s 99.9% attitude, baby. Let that inner light shine!

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          Thoughts July 19, 2014, 4:24 pm

          Honestly, this whole pitting gender versus finance is straight up as silly as that woman’s letter in the blog post.

          I’m behind both MMM and Rachel’s arguments because while each make their points within the same sphere of intersection between gender and finance, they don’t necessarily cancel one another out by any means.

          Both have good points and both have their down sides, same as any argument. And actually, I’ve found that social justice can indeed be quite complementary with financial independence.

          From MMM, I get the individual empowerment of choice, personal agency, and positive attitude as they meet up with financial independence. His tone of writing is his brand and that is obviously selling to folks like us. He’s providing a product – advice, ideas, and suggestions in tandem with a personal philosophy neatly packaged in a blog – that isn’t going to be everything to every individual person. Yes, his tone can be alienating, but I acknowledge the flaws I see when I’ve got my feminist glasses on, apply the financial advice I see as relevant and helpful for my lifestyle, and sail on toward my financial goals.

          From Rachel and her arguments – a form of feminism if I ever recognized it – the awareness and analysis of gender gives me just as much choice and agency, greater empathy, an understanding of what advantages I have, and in general ‘ways in which to be a better human being in spite of all the stupid, unfair, and arbitrary rules that we absorb from our culture’. It gives me the ability to be self-reflective about how I treat other people and their personal experiences. At the same time, it makes me aware of the kind of stupid, arbitrary rules I might see myself regurgitating by giving someone a ‘B’ letter grade for their appearance because I don’t think they wear enough make up.

          Yes, this still happens where folks are denied the promotion because of not cutting some manager’s dumb standard for business professional but the answer isn’t to whine about how hard it is. Acknowledge and point out how hard it is, be aware of it, and proactively do something to change it while totally taking that financial self-empowerment, determine which choices you’ll make which sync up with what you believe, and crank the financial guru in you up 11.

          In other words, your boss is being a sexist jerk because she looks at what you’re (not) wearing versus your actual work? Flip the bird to her and get a better paying job. That’s what I’m doing. I don’t need to wear make up or work overtime for her. Instead, I’m investing in myself by expanding in my skill set, saving every little dollar, finally giving into the fact that I need a roommate to stay comfortably afloat, and making the choice to study rather than decompress in front of the TV. Yes, I’m dog-tired by the end of the day, but I pull out my books, balance my budget, and figure out ways to make shit work. I can’t wait to get the hell out of my rage-inducing caste system corporate job.

          Neither philosophy – financial independence or feminism – is utterly mutually exclusive of the other. The former is bent on cutting down financial excess in favor of personal freedom and the latter is all about expanding that personal freedom. For example, MMM advocates for riding one’s bike to work in order to cut down the ridiculous costs of a car while feminism, broadly speaking, is about making that bike ride safe and acceptable option for everyone without harassment. We have arrived in neither realm where the reality is that everyone rides bikes to work and where everyone feels safe to do so, but we are working toward it as best as possible.

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          LadyStache July 20, 2014, 10:44 pm

          I would like to offer my sympathies and suggestions to Mrs. Enraged Reader. I am of mixed opinions about her letter, but I totally get her perspective.

          I am a very independent career woman (I earn more than my Mr.) who is half girly-girl, half tomboy. I don’t wear makeup or pantyhose, but I love cooking and sewing and sparkly things. In my budget I plan for things I enjoy, like lattes and haircuts and hiring a pro to fix my house. I also cut back on other things to make room for these in the budget, which I always assumed to be the point of MMM’s philosophy.

          I sometimes roll my eyes at the posts when MMM offers a suggestion that would absolutely not work in my job / location / lifestyle / marriage, but the principle is what I hold on to. It may get me to FI a little slower, but nevertheless I will get there.

          My husband has always had a Cheap Gene. It usually works out fine for us because I’m happily learning to be a Mustachian and his reticence to spend money helps me make better decisions. However, because of him, I too have lived a similarly frustrating “inflatable furniture” scenario.

          When we were first married, we had a tiny studio and therefore, not a lot of stuff. We eventually moved into a larger apartment and had more income, so naturally I wanted furniture. He refused. We fought about it, and his logic was: “if we buy furniture we will get comfortable here and then we will get too lazy and complacent to keep striving for buying a house, which is our big goal. Also, if tragedy happens and we go broke, we will need to downsize and we will lose all the money we spent on the furniture.” It was hard to argue with that because he was so passionate about it. But my back was sore and there was nowhere comfortable to sit except at our folding card table and chairs, or on our bed.

          It took a long time, but I finally found a solution. I told him that my back was sore and, come hell or high water, I was going to get something comfortable to sit on for myself before I incurred medical costs. I said I would pay for it and it would be unobtrusive in the apartment. I also said I would buy it from Costco, so we could return it for a full refund if tragedy struck and we had to move. He wasn’t pleased but I did it anyway.

          I went out and got myself the most comfortable Costco recliner I could find. Wouldn’t you know it? Within 3 days it was no longer mine. He loved it and I had to go buy a second one. I never heard another word about it, and I got what I needed.

          When we finally did buy a house, we kept the recliners, got more furniture, and life went on. I am hoping Mrs. Enraged Reader will be able to also find a solution to replace her inflatable couch, because I know how much that stinks. I hope this helps.

          (I have been following MMM since the beginning, but this is my first comment. What can I say, I was inspired. Thanks to MMM and all the readers for your ideas!)

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          Dana August 30, 2014, 2:56 pm

          I agree with Melissa. Generally I like MMM’s advice, but it’s very offputting for anyone who’s been given a financial advantage in life, whether that advantage comes from being white, being male, having rich parents, etc, to say “when we’re talking about money and lifestyle, let’s just pretend this advantage I have doesn’t exist.” To me, MMM asking us to ignore his male privilege would be the same as if he received money from a trust fund every month and then told us “I propose that you start with the assumption that people without trust funds have no disadvantages at all (whether that is really true or not), and design your life from that perspective instead”.

          I think it’s a good thing to acknowledge how different aspects of Moustachianism will be easier or harder for you, compared to others on the forum or comments, because of your gender, race, or anything else about yourself. It’s just the more respectful thing to do.

          There are many times in my life where I’ve had to make tough financial choices specifically because I’m female (having to choose between quitting a job and enduring sexual harrassment, for instance), and other times when I’ve had a financial benefit from being white (being hired elsewhere when I’m certain, after meeting the management, that I wouldn’t have gotten the job if I wasn’t white). This is the norm, not the exception. And yes, it feels bad to admit that some of the money in your bank account is there because of the way you look and the way our culture favors you. I get it! We all want to believe that everyone who worked as hard as us got the same return on their work as we did. But I wish more men and white folks would be level-headed enough to freely admit that they/we have it easier, instead of brushing people off.

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          Mr. Money Mustache August 31, 2014, 8:11 pm

          I won’t argue with your observations of privilege.. but if someone said to me, “Start by assuming that you have no disadvantages at all because you never got a trust fund”, it would be appropriate for me to agree. Advantages often turn out to be disadvantages, because they pamper us too early in our lifetimes. Meanwhile, the “hardships” can be something to endlessly argue about and publish academic papers on, or they can be the seed of some real accomplishment.

      • 

        Adrian M July 21, 2014, 3:33 pm

        Lord, who are these trolls agreeing with your comment with so much gusto. Being afraid to step out of gender roles continues to allow them to be de facto enforced. You just enforced gender roles by saying that MMM is out of touch because he is a “white, privileged male living in a liberal world.” That helps no one at all. That is the equivalent of saying “Welp, I’m black and they told me I can’t vote. Better go home”. You’re the definition of Complainypants.

        Reply
        • 

          lizzie July 22, 2014, 3:34 am

          Here’s a better analogy—and one that is not quite so comically divorced from the actual history of voting rights:

          Blogger: Voting is important. Everyone should vote!

          Black person: When I tried to register, they threatened to beat me up.

          Blogger: Pretend that didn’t happen.

          Black person: That’s not actually a helpful response.

          Adrian M: [pointing at black person]: Complainypants!

        • 

          Clint July 22, 2014, 6:17 am

          What happened to deleting comments that don’t add anything to the conversation (and for that matter, are complainy pants )? This thread was hijacked and goes on way too long.

          One of my favorite things about the comments here ( usually ) is that I don’t have to wade through a lot of whining indignation. Now I’m doing it!

        • 

          Ginger July 23, 2014, 11:48 am

          Being aware of a disadvantage or an advantage is not being complainypants. It is being aware which you actually need to compensate for those disadvantages.

      • 

        Ruth July 22, 2014, 6:19 pm

        I am a “uterus-haver” who rides a bike, and I respectfully disagree. I find far less abuse and scary driver behaviour riding my hybrid bike wearing a skirt than when I’m lycra’d up and riding with my male cycling friends.

        My preferred birth control method is a Mirena with a total cost of $290 every five years, including the procedural fee to remove the old one and replace it.

        I wear bare (shaved) legs under a skirt, and if the weather is cold enough I wear pants to work. My pants are no more expensive than my husbands if I shop in the right places. I cut my own hair, and have never worked in a job where my appearance has been noted as different to anyone else’s, despite the fact that I don’t pay for haircuts or stockings.

        It is what you make it. Excuses are just that.

        Reply
        • 

          ams January 2, 2015, 11:23 pm

          Where I work the mirena is $500 up front, and I absolutely have patients who cannot afford it. Some of them get pregnant and then have another child to support! Reality bites.
          Some of them could probably save up enough to buy it. For many it would take several months. The point is that this is a burden not suffered by men.

  • 

    Beth July 18, 2014, 8:01 am

    Count me in! The frugal lifestyle is not a biased one. If this disgruntled reader is not interested in joining the movement, I suppose that’s her choice – but I don’t appreciate the “hard things are only for men” attitude.

    When my husband starting reading this blog it was an answer to prayer. I’m only slightly annoyed with his new-found entertainment when he gets excited about something he reads and declares, “we should do this!” – even though I’ve been suggesting that very thing for several weeks… :-)

    Reply
    • 

      Goldeneer July 23, 2014, 6:59 am

      I too am the woman in our relationship who has pushed for a frugal lifestyle and early retirement. After 4 years of hard investing and frugal living, then 3 years of moderate spending, my husband is now retired at age 31 and is at home taking care of our baby. I can join him in 3 years at age 35.
      At first it wasn’t easy to sell him my dream because he loved his toys and his car but he realized that an early retirement was what he really wanted. Her husband needs to do a better job selling this dream to her and compromise.

      Men are equal spenders like women. They just spend it on different things like electronics, sports and big toys. She does not represent a typical woman. I’m not a typical woman either but I know very few women who like to spend money on frivolous things like a luxury car that they can’t afford and eating out most days of the week.
      The women professionals I know are modest in spending and some are aggressive in saving and investing. They aren’t cheap but they are frugal.

      I live a life of luxury even though I’m frugal and paid $4000 cash for our family hatchback car. I’m in better shape than ever thanks to my bicycle. Our family enjoys eating high quality meat, a car to get around in, nice long lasting furniture and a 900 sqft house just big enough for our needs.

      Reply
• 

  Sarah July 17, 2014, 8:06 am

  I have to agree–the implication that MMM is relegated mostly to men seems counterintuitive to the entire MMM philosophy: that every person has the power to control their financial independence. I love that the forums engage with female-specific issues (costs of socially-mandated beauty rituals, among other things) and issues of running a household, childcare, etc. (even though these things aren’t necessarily gender specific, they are often aligned more with women because of social norms).

  I think the line that gets me the most is: “We are poor. Not financially, but outwardly, we are poor.” The inverse of this, obviously, is that “Many people are rich. Not financially, but outwardly, they are rich.” I know things aren’t always quite so black-and-white, but it’s an interesting line that sums up a lot of the thinking in the PF blog. The line also speaks to why it’s so important to re-focus the conversation on what it means to be outwardly rich: not working 40 hrs/week? having time to devote to other endeavors and hobbies? cultivating relationships rather than acquiring things? etc.

  Reply
  • 

    Gina July 17, 2014, 11:59 am

    Yes!

    Reply
  • 

    Geoffrey July 19, 2014, 3:31 am

    Brilliant! =)

    Reply
  • 

    Strugglesaur August 17, 2014, 8:16 am

    Privilege is an important thing for everyone to learn about and understand, including this blog. At the minute, the blog hasn’t really tackled the extra costs and pay-loss faced by people without privilege. And it’s not that forms of privilege just prevent those of us without them from getting what we want (losing jobs to white men), but people with privilege need to recognize that your reality isn’t everyone’s reality. And no, it isn’t great that perceived women’s issues are talked about off the main blog in the forums—that is actually marginalization in action! Those topics that are normally associated with women should be in the main blog. That goes for PoC too.

    See how much you would be paid if you were the opposite sex or a different race here: http://inequality.is/ After that, ask yourself, shouldn’t the community here be receptive to learning more about inequality and social injustice? If the goal is for everyone to achieve FI and happiness, shouldn’t we work to find ways for *everyone* to get there?

    Reply
    • 

      Mark Schreiner July 22, 2023, 11:17 am

      Yes, priviledge and unearned advantage/disadvantage are real.

      On a personal level, however, each of us must “play the cards we were dealt” as best we can. And doing that means making the best choices, even if those are more difficult for us in comparison with others or less rewarding than they would be too others. This is how I interpret MMM’s saying to “Ignore your disadvantages”. Their existence is beyond your circle of control. How you deal with them is within it. It is not fair, but it is the way the world is now, and your best option for your own well-being is to focus on what you can control and do your best in that realm.

      This does not mean that we ignore privilege and disadvantage. We can still as individuals buck it, advocate against it, work against it, and join together with others to fight it, and so improve the world by reducing unearned advantage/disadvantage.

      Reply
      • 

        Mr. Money Mustache July 23, 2023, 12:18 pm

        Wow, well said Mark! This is a hard balance to express, and your summary is one of the very the best I’ve ever seen.

        Reply
• 

  Alicia July 17, 2014, 8:08 am

  This was hilarious. I hope all the emails you receive are this entertaining.

  Yeah, I don’t quite get the gender comment. I’ll admit I’m not the greatest mustachian, but I’m much more inclined to frugal living than my (male) fiancé.

  Reply
  • 

    Veronica July 17, 2014, 8:18 am

    I didn’t like the gender stereotyping either! I discovered MMM and shared with my husband. I also follow several other PF blogs, manage all of our bills and savings and have accumulated hundreds of thousands of travel points so that we can travel on the cheap! Ladies can handle finances just as easily as men! It boils down to which partner has the natural strength or desire to do it! I handle finances, husband handles interior design of our home!

    Reply
    • 

      K July 17, 2014, 11:42 am

      While I like MMM’s ideas, some blog language that’s meant to motivate doesn’t work well for me as a woman. Using “soft” as a demotivator, for example. Referring to it as a mustachian movement, a body part that few women can or want to grow. A bit of a turnoff actually. To me, the idea of being hard or sporting a mustache is the polar opposite of appealing.

      And, yes, I’m a strong woman who manages my finances pretty well while also living well in small ways that matter to me.

      I try to overlook the guy-speak and focus on the message. But, sure, this fan thinks a few language tweaks could help MMM connect better with women considering his ideas.

      Reply
      • 

        James July 20, 2014, 2:28 am

        It’s not a Mustache K… it’s a Money Mustache!

        Personally, I’m not too keen on the “complainypants” verbage. I think it’s a terrible made up word, but I think that just makes me a complainypants.

        Reply
    • 

      Janet July 17, 2014, 4:04 pm

      My situation is exactly the same — minus the hundreds of thousands of travel points and any semblance of interior design in our home :-). My husband is a frugal soul who has managed to teach me wonderful things in the six years we’ve been married (example: instead of buying DVDs at retail we get them at the pawn shop for $2 then sell them back to the same pawn shop for $1 after we’ve watched them — the man’s a genius). However, his main interest is politics and he leaves all of the financials to me since I actually enjoy paying bills, saving money, finding investment properties, etc. We are almost always on exactly the same page when it comes to money, for which I am eternally grateful. It makes life so much easier . . .

      Reply
      • 

        Krishanu July 24, 2014, 1:27 pm

        ” …I actually enjoy paying bills …”

        I don’t think I have ever heard this said aloud (or written down) by anyone other than inside my brain! I love paying bills!

        Reply
  • 

    Debbie July 20, 2014, 11:14 am

    What I found most humorous is that I am a women and a dedicated reader of MMM, but my husband completely indentifies with the non reader’s email. He would have written similar things. He enjoys the non mustachian lifestyle and is very frustrated with me when I try to be more frugal. We have had many arguments on the subject. I certainly feel for the couple.

    Reply
    • 

      NatPatBen September 6, 2014, 12:13 pm

      Same here. Sigh.

      Reply
• 

  Laura July 17, 2014, 9:34 am

  Yes there are women out there who feel entitled to everything the greedy commercial system would have us believe we need. I’m not one of them either. I’m proud to have converted my husband to the joys of frugal living and assessing TRUE priorities. Our shared spiritual beliefs are likely a huge part of that. I’m a stay at home, homeschooling mom to my 3 kids and dollars are tight cuz we are on track to have our house paid off in about a year. As a family we are proud to treasure hunt our clothes at the local thrift store and drive an older, dented minivan through suburbia.
  Because it means that in 257 days, my DH will trade in his ft job and semiretire to working at home pt. I say celebration is in order to good women everywhere who understand what’s truly important!!

  Reply
  • 

    ks July 17, 2014, 1:18 pm

    Amen, sista! I just drove my 19 year old car (with cassette deck blaring) to treasure hunt clothes at a thrift store because they had 30% off . I love getting $5 items that I see overpriced on QVC & HSN for $40-60.

    I am soft ’cause the mighty X chromosome dictates that and I am muscled from biking. I have also spent 20+ years advocating for better bicycling facilities and it’s paying off – which US city had the first bikesharing program?? Our nation’s capital!!

    Reply
    • 

      Leslie July 17, 2014, 2:05 pm

      Yeah, I love my cassette deck too. All my foreign language study tapes are cassettes and they still sound great. I can study Spanish, Italian, and French in the front seat of my 2001 Prius, from the comfort of my garage. LOL

      Reply
• 

  Farmstache July 17, 2014, 12:19 pm

  Yeah, I didn’t take offense, because after all there are woman who want to be soft and some who don’t, but I did flex my indignant muscle. :)

  My DH found MMM, but I devoured it just as eagerly, and now I’m in the forums every day while he isn’t. I like to exercise, I hate putting on makeup, I get goosebumps of fear when I think of going shopping, and I biked or walked or got the train to work for years… and am really happy! And I still feel very much like a woman.

  Reply
• 

  jack July 17, 2014, 1:48 pm

  The thing that strikes me about the complainypants is how well it is crafted. I can see why some think it is a troll. I have an ex-wife that lied, etc, and did everything and anything to avoid financial responsibility. Doing whatever she wants when she wants no matter the cost it what is most important in her life. Shopping IS religion to these types. We were a working class family and her ways ended our marriage.

  With this in mind it would be an absolute coup De ta to take down or even damage MMM !! Please keep this in mind. Much like MMM is a movement the people who rail against it are a movement also !! To them MMM needs to be destroyed.

  Reply
• 

  MissOliver July 17, 2014, 3:01 pm

  I’m with you too. Happy moustachian woman. I wonder how the reader stats stack up?

  Reply
• 

  Mrs Nickels July 17, 2014, 4:19 pm

  “I wonder if it’s the absence of a concrete financial destination that’s hindering them…”

  I agree! Until I showed my own non-mustachian husband my fancy-schmancy spreadsheet showing we could retire in 7 years, he didn’t “get it.” One look at my numbers, and the transformation was both striking and immediate. He “got it” and was on board with me; no nagging or bugging necessary. My favorite part? Him asking me “What was the name of that mustache guy’s website again?” It was joy to my ears.

  Reply
  • 

    Mark July 17, 2014, 8:18 pm

    I just Googled “mustache guy” (without the quotes) and didn’t see an MMM mention until page three. Bit of a downer, that.

    Reply
    • 

      danvan July 17, 2014, 10:22 pm

      Any now thanks to your comment this site is the top google hit for “mustache guy”

      Reply
    • 

      Claire July 17, 2014, 10:23 pm

      Maybe we need to be sure to type ” mustache guy ” in all the comments from now on?

      Reply
      • 

        Kenoryn July 19, 2014, 6:59 pm

        Maybe “moustache guy” to get the Canadians and Brits in too. ;)

        Reply
  • 

    christine July 19, 2014, 12:07 pm

    Exactly! When I first told DH about my new goal of saving enough so I wouldn’t need to work (still might), he sincerely thought it was impossible. Until you sit down in a receptive mode and look at the math, it’s hard to wrap your head around.

    Reply
• 

  Spectra July 17, 2014, 5:43 pm

  I share the feelings of Mrs. Frugalwoods. My wife is without a doubt the more frugal of us two. I love to plan, map out, extrapolate, and get big ideas. Listening to many friends and reading self-help site for years I learned better and better how to sell my wife on these ideas I have. We’re a team. I have lots of ideas and 2/3 are just stupid; about another 25% aren’t well thought out. So in this persons case maybe she is just being tired of hearing how she needs to change rather than being sold on the idea.

  Reply
• 

  Tim July 19, 2014, 10:43 pm

  I had a real problem with her statement about being proud of having no muscle. My girl lifts and I couldn’t be more proud. So many people in America live with the misconception that if you merely look at a weight set, you will instantaneously sprout massive muscle fibers. In the fitness community, this is a common running joke – “don’t you just hate it when you go to the gym and accidentally Arnold (Schwarzennegger)?”.

  I’ve yet to see one person Accidentally Arnold. It cannot happen.

  Ladies, please don’t be afraid of the gym. Enjoy the iron temple. Nothing more attractive than a girl who squats. Except perhaps a girl who squats and follows Mustachianism of course…

  Reply
• 

  Jamie July 20, 2014, 10:08 pm

  I am female and have always had an eye toward early retirement or semi retirement. My hubby isn’t a big fan but he’s made big strides through our discussions. I also am annoyed when folks put girls in boxes. Especially when they are girls. Being a girl is not an excuse to be completely useless with a power tool or to need a latte.

  Maybe it has more to do with the environment young girls are raised in. I see many girls going to school with bows and dresses and sitting on the sidelines during free play. I read Facebook posts from friends getting manicures and pedicures with their 6 year old and having their frappisomethingchino lattes and matching brand new outfits. This materialism seems to me to not be doing them any favors on many levels.

  Reply
  • 

    danideskjob August 14, 2014, 12:46 pm

    My Dad retired nearly a decade ago and my FIL still works. I think that’s part of the reason that my husband and I see things so differently. It was more important to my Dad to retire than to drive new cars or go on fancy trips or buy the latest gadgets.

    I definitely think that girls get a much stronger message that spendinng = happuiness and that materialism is expected and celebrated. But I also think that parents have a tremendous influence. It’s not that the 6-year-olds are getting manicures and pedicures, it’s that their Mom’s are taking them. Yes, the broader environment is going to play a major role. But it starts at home.

    Reply
• 

  Stephanie July 21, 2014, 11:47 am

  Yes! I don’t think it’s a gender thing at all. At least in my circle of friends and acquaintances, it’s just as often (if not more often) the wife who is super frugal and the husband who wants expensive toys. I guess I’m the lucky one, because both my husband and I have the super frugal gene.

  I agree that what the C couple is missing is a clear goal. I think a large part of our success is due to a big goal worth working toward: pay of six figures of law school student loans and then buy a house (right now we’re residing, with our 3 kiddos, in my in-laws’ basement “apartment”). We see every opportunity to spend or save as getting us closer to or further from our goal. Mrs. C sees her husband as being cheap for the sake of being cheap.

  That being said, I think she should get a couch. I’m sure she can find a nice one for free or cheap that will be better than what they have now. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, especially since that seems to be one of her major hangups.

  Those are some seriously funny emails!

  Reply
• 

  CincyCat July 27, 2014, 1:01 pm

  I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that there could be cultural/religious beliefs behind her “I’m proud to be a soft female” mentality. (In this context, the idea that she is required to buy pantyhose makes sense… she is probably prohibited from wearing pants in her faith/tradition – and being a nurse practitioner, wearing dresses/skirts therefore requires pantyhose). If that is the case, she is unlikely to be swayed by arguments suggesting that she should get tougher. Also, she’s become used to a certain standard of living, and now he’s abruptly changed the rules of the game mid-stream. This isn’t what she signed up for, and I believe she is justified in feeling angry and blindsided. On the other hand, her husband should not behave as an overlord, either. (Only allowing one Coke a week? Seriously?) Instead, if he wants to keep his relationship happy, he should work with her to come up with mutual financial goals, and concede a bit of his cheapness.

  Reply

FI Pilgrim July 17, 2014, 7:48 am

• 

  Krissa July 17, 2014, 8:54 am

  Right? Everyone hates kittens here, that’s the gateway to early retirement.

  Reply
  • 

    Ellie July 17, 2014, 11:31 am

    Yeah, kittens are soooo expensive. Feeding them, vet appointments, years and years of cat food and vet appointments. Oy.

    Reply
  • 

    Joggernot July 17, 2014, 1:25 pm

    Dang! Now I know the problem…we have seven cats.

    Reply

despondent millionaire July 17, 2014, 8:12 am

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  Monica July 17, 2014, 4:26 pm

  Right (and funny!)… and, it doesn’t take a genius to pick up a nice, used sofa for under $100 these days.

  But, to be fair, you’d be amazed at how many guys have entitled, complainypants (but I deserve to drive a $100K car right now, right now, RIGHT NOW!!!) attitude. Your comments are prob just as fitting for a lot of fellows who have a similar mind set out there….

  Reply
  • 

    Eldred July 17, 2014, 8:04 pm

    I’m not sure I’d *trust* a used $100 sofa, unless it was from someone I *knew*. I’ve heard WAY too many horror stories about used furniture and appliances that had hidden…stowaways along for the ride… I *do* need a new sofa, and paying about $600 from the store means it will also be delivered for me. :-) I don’t have a pickup/SUV.

    Reply
    • 

      David B. July 18, 2014, 9:15 am

      For used furniture like that I’ll only buy leather, and even then I do try to be careful, but at least it is much easier to clean than a fabric sofa. Around here if you buy it in the winter you can always leave it in the garage (or with a tarp over it outside perhaps) and let it freeze to kill possible bedbugs.

      Reply
    • 

      Monica July 18, 2014, 10:47 am

      Eldred,

      Before I bought my house, I upgraded from a studio apt to a luxurious 1 bedroom apt which was quite a thrill but also meant I needed a sofa. I couldn’t imagine spending a lot of $$ on furniture before I had enough to buy a house, so I checked out the local salvation army and other thrift stores.

      I found a lovely white sofa with slip covers for $50. The slip covers, of course, were washable. I thoroughly inspected the sofa. There was a small rip on the back of it which I knew would be up against the wall in my small apt. Delivered, the whole cost was less than $100. It was a wonderful sofa that I didn’t replace until I bought my home at which I upgraded to a sofa in the clearance room at Levitz, which delivered, cost less than $300.

      In the meantime, I cook for my whole family every holiday and needed a HUGE table but didn’t want to spend the $ in my apt. So, I bought an old farm door that was huge and had panes of glass all the way down it. I painted the wood frame cherry red, had a piece of glass cut to cover the whole thing, bought a couple of work saw type, artsy stand things as sturdy legs, and presto! I had a GORGEOUS table that I still use (now in the garage) happily to this day for under $200.

      Creativity, common sense and a lil courage can go a long way towards saving big $$ on furniture while still loving what you live in/on/around.

      Reply
      • 

        Eldred July 18, 2014, 12:15 pm

        Awesome – I didn’t know that SA or thrift stores would deliver. I’ve never bought anything from one…

        Reply
• 

  Mr. One Wheel Drive July 17, 2014, 9:32 pm

  What makes you think that English is her first language? Can’t judge someone’s intelligence by their spelling.

  Reply
• 

  Ulf Benjaminsson July 18, 2014, 10:57 am

  You keep saying “women like this” as if that means something.

  She went through the effort of contacting MMM to raise some of her concerns, and did so with humor and good style. Both of these letters were arguably well constructed; making valid points while being both funny and clearly articulated.

  The texts carries some problematic gender norms, but maybe or partly in jest? Either way, I’m not willing to write off her larger point because of that.

  Point is: these letters were not written by a dumb person, and whether she was a sex worker or not doesn’t factor into anything.

  Reply

Big Guy Money July 17, 2014, 8:30 am

• 

  Rebecca Stapler July 17, 2014, 8:39 am

  Or glasses, at least!

  Reply

Gerard July 17, 2014, 8:52 am

• 

  Karen July 17, 2014, 4:41 pm

  EXACTLY. I don’t think she’s a troll at all. I think she’s just trying to keep a sense of humor about it and I totally understand what she’s trying to say. The family who mustaches together must agree on the ground rules, not have one partner who dictates them all .

  I’m a single woman who found this blog fairly recently (last 9-12 months). I’ve totally changed my lifestyle and outlook because of it. I now live in complete hatred of debt and hope to have that wiped out very soon, and to start saving. But I don’t follow each and every specific tenet exactly the same as the Mustachioed One. I don’t ride a bike ANYWHERE (I don’t even have a bike). I live in a SoCal urban area and would never risk my skull on the roads with Tahoes and the rest of the commuting crowd. I even often curse bikers who get in my way on the way to work — sacrilege!

  I think the point is to decide which changes and lifestyle decisions are going to work for you, and which are something to place on the shelf to revisit another day. Getting fixed on your real GOALS is also important. Do the most that you possibly can, but don’t you also want to find ways to enjoy yourself along the way?

  I am NOT going to give up certain “frills” or “treats” that I enjoy (occasional dinner and drinks out), that make me a more attractive soft-person (salon visit every 5-6 weeks), but I have cut many, many others and am just more aware of everything overall. Sounds like most of the rest of you are blind followers who would never venture to stray from the holy scrolls (or at least, you would never admit to it).

  MMM writes about what works for ONE FAMILY. Adjust and continue to adjust throughout life, and this thing works for everyone. Have no room for error or improvement, and you’re the jerk, not the “troll.”

  Reply
  • 

    Gerard July 24, 2014, 7:11 am

    Because part of the discussion has been about spelling, Karen gets a virtual internet prize for knowing the difference between “tenet” and “tenant”…

    Reply
• 

  nancy July 17, 2014, 11:09 pm

  I agree. She has legitimate complaints. They both work good paying jobs and can easily afford a few comforts like a decent mattress, a real sofa, and a more comfortable apartment or house, while still living frugally. (I’m not going to touch the SUV thing cuz I don’t get it. I would love to have a prius!)

  Reading between the lines, it sounds like she’s ready to start a family and maybe he wants to hoard more money first? She’s feeling resentful, like what’s the point working my ass off if I can’t even spend my money how I want? What they need is marriage counseling. He’s not going to be any LESS of a cheapskate once they have a baby and are down to one income. It’s gonna drive her crazy and the relationship will implode.

  These two are not compatible. They should cut their losses now before there’s a kid in the mix.

  Reply

Monica July 17, 2014, 8:59 am

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  Free To Pursue July 17, 2014, 9:12 am

  Monica, seek out engineers and school teachers. They are awesome frugal types for the most part. You will find that these folks, along with self-made entrepreneurs, are often cited in “The Millionaire Next Door”.

  On the flip side, anyone who has gone to business school is more likely to be a lost cause in need of converting (I was one of them and it took me 10 years to wake up and realize I was nothing but a hamster on a wheel).

  Reply
  • 

    Monica July 17, 2014, 4:06 pm

    Thanks, Free To Pursue….

    Agree on both fronts…. and so funny! I realized early on, that I am generally the polar opposite in terms of values with folks in the following broad occupations: sales, politics, law and consulting.

    Thanks for the pointer. Btw, I love all of Stanley’s Millionaire books…. esp. the saying “big hat, no cattle”….

    Reply
• 

  greg July 17, 2014, 6:54 pm

  people are out there in “big industries” — working for The Man is only correlation, not necessarily causation. Sucking resources out of well-capitalized corporations can put one on quite a brisk trot towards freedom!

  Reply
  • 

    Monica July 18, 2014, 10:54 am

    Greg,

    So true. As a current employee of “the man”, I am fast tracking towards FIRE’ing myself… I can’t complain about the bounty or the opportunities in big business… but, finding like minded/like valued folks has been relatively tough. Before, I discovered this blog and Jacob’s ERE, the only community I could find was in books! :)

    Love the MMM/ERE/FIRE community!!!

    Reply
• 

  Hillbilly Wantabe July 19, 2014, 10:04 am

  The wife shit is really serious, having just gone through a three year divorce and custody battle. At one point, my now ex wanted to put my son in therapy, because of his aversion to shopping—he sits in the car and refuses to go into the store, and I have to go int the store by myself to buy him clothes. It gives a whole new meaning to “shopping therapy.”

  At one point, prior to the divorce, our marriage counselor wanted to prescribe me anti-depressants, so I could keep doing a job that I hated. I declined. My now ex moved out without discussion or warning, about six weeks after I suggested that we would be better off if we just cashed in our chips, and moved to a small farm surrounded by the Amish.

  I sense an entrepreneurial opportunity here—a frugal-dating site—though it is not clear how the proprietor could ever make any money off this crowd. I myself am looking for a wife who would like to start and live on a small subsistence farm, supplemented with whatever seed potatoes we might be able to afford with a 4% draw on $2M capital.

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    Joel July 20, 2014, 3:13 am

    He probably just hated to go clothes shopping *WITH HER*. When I was a young lad I always loathed that experience for some reason.

    Nowadays I have a few articles I picked out that I really enjoy (including a $500 leather jacket), though I’m really cutting down on those sort of expenditures…

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    Farmstache July 20, 2014, 8:27 am

    Hey, Hillbilly Wannabe (like me), I’m a bit too south and too committed to join you on this adventure, but I know of an amazing single woman farmer who left the city and her design job just to pursue her dream of farming, and has been doing great at it for 6 years (I think). She also writes and has a few books published and a blog. She’s a bit of a nerd and hunts with a bow and falcon on horseback, has a border collie that herds sheep, two goats and a garden. I don’t know if you two would get along, or what’s your age (she’s 31 or 32 now I think), or if you’d like her independence, but even so, I’d really recommend you go to one of the weekend courses in her farm, get to know her and other people who gather around her. They are people who are usually willing to give up the comfort of their cushy jobs in favor of a very hard farm life, so you might find someone great there. Look up Cold Antler Farm. In fact, this year they’ll have a Confidential Meeting where people go to learn about the ups and downs of starting their own farm (and get confidence to do it). It’s upstate NY.

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Jenny July 17, 2014, 9:09 am

Lara July 17, 2014, 9:12 am

Becky July 17, 2014, 9:17 am

Steve July 17, 2014, 9:25 am

Todd Beaubien July 17, 2014, 9:33 am

Debbie M July 17, 2014, 9:56 am

Kelsey July 17, 2014, 10:21 am

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  Hannah July 21, 2014, 9:38 am

  If you drink kombucha, you should really look into making it. It’s pretty easy, and I like my flavors better than store bought flavors.

  http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-your-own-kombucha-scoby-cooking-lessons-from-the-kitchn-202596

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    Kelsey July 22, 2014, 3:59 pm

    Thanks for the link! I bought my scoby online from Kombucha Kamp and have had a lot of success with it but it’s great to know I could make my own in a pinch. Here’s my latest Kombucha adventure: http://www.seriouslysincere.com/kombucha-part-2-flavor-country/

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Bob Werner July 17, 2014, 10:33 am

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  Mr. Money Mustache July 18, 2014, 2:52 pm

  No.

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  PK July 18, 2014, 7:23 pm

  Oh my. 3% after tax is 4% pretax for these guys (if your salary assumption is right). I can’t earn that on my cash right now. Never finance a car, even if it’s chumpchange.

  And the attitude you’re suggesting is the first leak in the dike – they’d be spending $201K (or $250K…) p.a. fairly soon with that approach. And on a less financial level, would buying her the Tahoe alone bring lasting peace and harmony???

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Green Girl Success July 17, 2014, 10:39 am

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  Albie July 19, 2014, 6:19 pm

  I was trying to find a good netflix movie to watch tonight. That’s one more reason I love this site. Thanks!

  Reply