Case Study: Average Everyday Complainypants Seeks Redemption

Michael December 10, 2014, 9:29 am

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  Jbo December 10, 2014, 9:41 am

  Dude! This blog, as has been pointed out many times, is not for people in poverty. Yes it is a sad situation that many people are stuck in, but MMM is not designed to cater toward every financial situation.

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    Michael December 10, 2014, 10:02 am

    That won’t stop me from asking. I think a guy like MMM could do just as much good for individuals in poverty if he put his mind to it. Our country/world is only as great as the least among us. Finding ways to help/serve them, serves us all – just as biking to work and not being a sucka consumer does. Sure, it might not be his specific purview, but one article addressing the situation wouldn’t hurt, and could possibly do worlds of good. At the very least, it might give those more privileged and unaware among the readers a new perspective. At this troubled and divided time in this country, anything that could bring more people together, or at least make one another more aware of each other and their respective life situations, sounds like a good thing to me. Thanks.

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      jeffrey C December 10, 2014, 10:31 am

      You’re right that a lot of the most tactical -level suggestions offered here are more challenging for those in an impovershed situation to apply. That doesn’t mean they can’t clean some insight by looking at the principles being advocated and examining where in the their financial situation/life they could make alternative choices. They may discover few options then those of us in more privilege positions, but I venture few would have absolutely no options to choose to live or spend different and take a small step toward a better financial situation. Simple example in the city where I live (Indianapolis). Local nonprofits discovered that people in poverty were spending too much of their food dollars on higher cost empty calories because they had never learned how to cook and more effectively shop for groceries. Classes to address this need were immediately created.

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      Frugal Bazooka December 10, 2014, 11:26 am

      Poverty is an interesting concept in this country. Little kids and severely disabled people who are in poverty have no options – their parents or disabilities – have placed them in a financial situation that is defined as poverty or lack of money. The kid is stuck and they can’t do much about it until they get old enough to attend school.
      On the other hand, healthy, mentally stable adults are not in poverty because of a flawed system or bad luck. They are in poverty for a variety of reasons that are mostly self inflicted – the most prevalent being a lack of education – which limits job opportunities. Why did they not receive an education? Was it their parents? Was it their teachers? Is it the horrible schools? No, lots of kids get good educations from horrible schools IF THEY WANT IT. Why do so many high school kids and adults view education as a burden instead of a passport to a better life? I will never understand that conundrum – nor accept it as an excuse.
      There is a didactic that is taught in American schools and esp colleges that goes something like this: “The system is so stacked against the poor and uneducated that they don’t have a chance to get out of poverty unless the gov’t helps them out” – in my opinion – this is total bullshit.
      The irony is that never in the history of this country has there been so many gov’t programs and opportunities for success than there are today, and yet the stats for poverty are reported in the media as a continuing serious problem.
      My feeling is, If you choose to not attend school and get good grades, that’s on you.

      I feel for kids in poverty but the able bodied, able minded adults, I have zero sympathy for and no amount of proselytizing by MMM is going to change their bad life habits. Personal success – financial or otherwise – never has and never will be created from external sources like a gov’t program or a guru based web site. Expecting an adult to get out of poverty by reading a self help website is a tall order indeed.

      Having said that – it can’t hurt right??

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        JB December 10, 2014, 11:34 am

        We have the richest poor people in the world. Exclude the truly homeless and most people have a roof, running water and electricity. Try living in the slums of Rio or India. THAT is poverty. Why are the poor so fat? They apparently have enough to eat. Or the kids are getting free food at school. We have a free education from K-12. Get the HS diploma as the bare minimum. If you work a MW job and never get a raise, that is your problem, not your bosses.

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          Eric December 11, 2014, 11:44 am

          They’re fat because they eat very cheap food, which plays havok with their blood insulin levels, and makes them pre-diabetic or diabetic. It has nothing to do with being well fed.

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          Leo December 11, 2014, 7:57 pm

          Fast food is not cheap. If they ate actual cheap food staples they wouldn’t be fat.

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        BCB December 10, 2014, 12:28 pm

        This is an extremely naive perspective. This sounds like someone looking down from the ivory tower of privilege and suggesting that everyone should have done as well as you have because it was so easy for you.

        There are many roadblocks that a person attempting to escape poverty runs into. Here are some examples: lack of a mentor, lack of confidence, lack of intelligence, lack of connections, lack of nutrition, lack of money to invest in oneself, discrimination, addiction, lack of proximity to opportunity, etc.

        I agree that some of these may be self-defeating and there are certainly people who could help themselves out more than they do, but to suggest that every person who is in poverty deserves to be poor is quite heartless. Particularly if you are from white-picket fence suburb A with parents with high paying jobs who supported your activities and paid for your college, etc.

        I am from a relatively poor town with uneducated parents but I do recognize the privilege I experienced growing up such as being naturally good at school, having access to inexpensive post-secondary education, lack of discrimination, etc. It was not easy per se but I had a lot of help along the way.

        Poverty cannot be explained by just saying people are not trying enough; it is a societal problem that we should all feel some responsibility for and find ways to help others.

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          JB December 10, 2014, 12:43 pm

          lack of mentor? Please. That is a crock. There are millions of people that have succeeded without a mentor. The problem is when a successful poor person makes it, they leave the area they grew up in. I never said they deserve to be poor, but the choices that are made keep them in poverty. Don’t have kids if you aren’t married, finish HS. Those two decisions will increase your chance of not being in poverty. How hard is it to keep your legs closed? Yes, it might be harder to finish HS if you have parents that aren’t around or in/out of jail or on drugs, but you can’t help every single person in the country. The opportunities are there. there are stories of people overcoming the obstacles in their lives.

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          Megan December 10, 2014, 12:53 pm

          Poor people are fat because they eat fast food that has tons of calories and is not healthy for them. America is the only country whose poor are fat. A $1 at McDonalds is why poor people are fat. They’re not fat because they have enough to eat. They’re fat because shitty food is what is available in their price range.

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          BCB December 10, 2014, 1:27 pm

          If every person you know is poor and every adult you know has a crappy deadend job, that is a lot different than going to the country club on the weekend and rubbing shoulders with the mayor and other well-to-dos. It is also different than all of your parents friends having reasonable middle class jobs and college educations.

          Since we have started to discuss teenage pregnancy, that is a great example. Poor children are much less likely to have access to birth control. Also, in a wealthy family, there may be enough support for a teenage mother to successfully complete high school and college. However, if the home situation is such that the young mother cannot rely on family, then she will have to drop out of high school and live the consequences of that.

          I am not suggesting that we reach out to every poor person (there are too many poor people), but to suggest that all poor people are morally inferior is basically BullShit!

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          JB December 10, 2014, 1:31 pm

          Guess what, you don’t need birth control if you raise your kids to not have sex until they can take care of themselves.

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          wayof infinity December 11, 2014, 6:31 am

          JB you have missed the point. We can all agree that education is an enormous separator between the haves and have nots, but, this extends far beyond formal education into incredible life skills. You state that “you don’t need birth control if you raise your kids to not have sex until they can take care of themselves”. The point is that many underprivileged do not receive this kind of education. I agree with some of your previous points, and tend to be wary of excuses on an individual to individual basis. But, to not acknowledge that there is a larger systemic issue, that includes income inequality is folly. I imagine this will be the tact that MMM’s future article will take.

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          anonK December 11, 2014, 5:22 pm

          While I don’t necessarily believe your argument (“if you are poor, help yourself, get an education, and stop being poor”), I believe the arguments made against you even less:

          – the poor don’t have a mentor. So what? To do what? Encourage them to finish HS and learn a trade? Look at the people 5 years ahead of you; they have to work for a living. Consider it. The public library has plenty of mentors, and is available for free.

          – the poor have MW jobs. FALSE. suburban kids have MW jobs (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/02/who-earns-the-minimum-wage-suburban-teenagers-not-single-parents), and they get raises quickly (https://www.epionline.org/studies/r16/). It is the ‘first rung of the ladder’.

          – poor people are fat because they “can only afford McDonalds”. BULLSHIT. This is a bag of lentils (http://www.amazon.com/Spicy-World-Masoor-Indian-Lentils/dp/B000K89490/ref=zg_bs_16322081_7). This is a bag of rice (http://www.amazon.com/Nishiki-Premium-Medium-Grain-15-Pound/dp/B004NRLAVY/ref=sr_1_1?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1418342902&sr=1-1&keywords=rice). This is a nutritionally complete month of food. For anyone that disagrees, consider that it is the diet of most of the world. My household currently makes ~$180K, and lentils/rice is a dietary staple (nutritious, cheap), and I have lived for 1+ month on this combination on several occasions through graduate school. “Woe is me, I am fat because I’m poor” is bullshit.

          – The poor cannot afford birth control. Firstly, this is bullshit (planned parenthood will give you 12 for free just for stopping in). Secondly, the rich couldn’t afford condoms just 100 years ago. Thirdly, did the abstinence option disappear?

          – the poor have no opportunities nearby. MOVE. Moving across the country in pursuit of opportunity is the American way.

          – lack of money to invest in oneself. Lincoln famously educated himself with a library card, in addition to many others (http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/02/10-impressive-people-who-educated-themselves-with-only-a-library-card/). The library is warm, and only requires your time.

          – lack of connections. If you work a MW job, show up on time, do a good job, and spend your spare time at the library, you will have them. Seriously. A friend of mine was “working poor” for a year until presenting herself well before the company president. You get an audience with the company president by doing a good job and being reliable.

          – Addiction. Bad choices, plain and simple.

          Don’t get me wrong: I won a genetic lottery by being born to smart parents in the USA. However, if you were born in the USA, try not to screw up the number of opportunities that society has given you.

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          Brooke December 12, 2014, 11:45 am

          Uh, whoa there. Your question “how hard is it to keep your legs closed?” is RIDICULOUSLY SEXIST. Are women the only one with baby-making genitals? Don’t think so. Why didn’t you also ask the question “how hard is it to not get a woman pregnant?”. Sexist pig who completely lacks empathy.

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          JB December 12, 2014, 12:38 pm

          men are too stupid to use condoms and women have all the control over consensual sex. Yes, it is that easy to just say No and keep your legs closed. There is no other way to get pregnant. Birth control isn’t 100% effective. Abstinence is. Yes, it takes two, but men don’t get pregnant. Look at the story from Memphis, One guy has impregnated 15 women to the tune of 25 kids. Whose fault is it? the women do not have to have sex with this man. Who are the dumb ones to do it twice?

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          JB December 12, 2014, 12:40 pm

          and why should I be empathetic to someone making horrible choices? You know you are poor, you know you can’t afford a baby, yet you go out and have unprotected sex? Who doesn’t know about birth control in this day and age when it is free?

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          Brooke December 12, 2014, 4:16 pm

          The responsibility to not get pregnant should not be left solely on the women’s shoulders. It is ignorant men like yourself who put it there. MEN should be responsible for the insertion (which is NOT a passive act) of their penis JUST as much as women are responsible for receiving it. In addition, men will say anything to be able to get laid, including that they’ll pull out, that they love the woman, that you can’t get pregnant your first time (yes this is a pervasive opinion among poor, uneducated youths), and to a young woman who so far in her life has yet to have someone say they love her, these things are powerful. There are SO many stories from young women who say “he told me he loved me” as a reason for pre-marital sex. SO maybe it should be on men to keep their mouths AND pants closed.

          Oh also, your little gem of a comment “Guess what, you don’t need birth control if you raise your kids to not have sex until they can take care of themselves” is also insanely crazy. You can raise a child to do the right thing, you can shelter them from temptations, you can teach them as much as you possibly can, and they will still make mistakes. Abstinence teaching is proven time and time again to be absolutely ineffective, just look at Texas as an example. The state leads the country with pre-marital sex and teen pregnancy and has a state-wide mandate that only abstinence can be taught and contraceptive training is not allowed. Backwards, stupid, and ineffective. The key is mentoring both at-risk women and men BEFORE they make bad choices, pushing contraceptives, and implementing sex ed courses that actually make sense.

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          Michael December 10, 2014, 1:42 pm

          I’m right there with you, BCB. At first I thought your use of the word heartless was quite harsh. But, after reading some subsequent comments, I can see that some people need some more love and empathy in their hearts before they can see that there is no easy fix. Saying, “people should help themselves” is an easy fix. It ignores reality, and the complex and systemic oppression placed upon too many in our society.

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          Nigel December 10, 2014, 4:56 pm

          Megan said re. McDonalds:
          “They’re fat because shitty food is what is available in their price range.”

          Actually, fast food is very expensive compared to (dry) beans, (dry) rice, cabbage, carrots, frozen green beans or spinach,, etc. Maybe some chicken if you’re feeling fancy (boneless skinless breasts are $1.98 per pound at Walmart). I love fast food (unfortunately) but when I eat it I end up spending 4x what I’d normally spend cooking at home.

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          Jim December 11, 2014, 1:39 am

          We have quite a lot of obese, poor people here in the UK. A government minister just got in trouble because she said poor people can’t cook. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/08/poor-cannot-cook-peer-eats-words As an example, she said that the porridge she’d made for herself for breakfast had cost about 10 cents. She had a point, but she was slaughtered in the media for making it! Poverty is a massive issue and the only answer I have to it is education. On that basis, the MMM blog delivers, even if it doesn’t apply to everyone.

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          theFIREstarter December 24, 2014, 3:06 am

          @ Jim

          Why do you think she was slated in the media?

          1. It was the easy line to take rather than tackling the real issue. Easy story / lazy journalism.
          2. Perhaps more importantly, the media is completely in the pockets (either via advertising or other more direct associations) of big coorporations such as McDonalds and therefore they have huge incentive to keep up the narrative that the good life is impossible unless you are spending big $$$/£££.

          If they ran the story saying, yea she has a point, poor people please have a look at resource X and Y and educate yourselves how to cook, or better still start a campaign for free cooking classes for those on benefits (etc) then the ultimate outcome of that if successful would mean less £££ for their corporate sponsors, and therefore that is why they would never run the story with that perspective.

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          Frugal Bazooka December 11, 2014, 9:25 am

          Nothing you’ve stated disputes my point. My point is many people in poverty choose paths in life that keep them in poverty. Instead of focusing and succeeding in school they avoid school like some kind of plague forced on them by the state. I’m not sure why people fail at school. Even struggling students, if they kept trying in school they would benefit from the experience – rather than drop out or fail and limit their opportunities. To not expect the individual to find a way to succeed, is to deny his or her ability to succeed. I choose to believe that every single able bodied and able minded individual has choices, esp today with such a panoply of gov’t and charitable agencies willing to help.

          Day after day recent immigrants become millionaires in the US because they are willing to work their asses off to learn the language, work at any stinkin’ job they can find, work for 12 hours a day, avoid drugs and alcohol, and most importantly attend FREE, TAX PAYER FUNDED SCHOOLS. They jump on every opportunity and never complain or whine about ivory towers and the rich. Instead of complaining they are out in the world trying to figure out a way to become rich, no matter how poor they are at the moment. Why are they so willing to risk their time to achieve success?
          There is an ever growing segment of the American population that not only has given up on themselves and their potential for success, but now expects the gov’t to shelter them from their own lack of desire or interest in succeeding.
          In the past, maybe in the days of the Robber Barons, a certain amount of poverty was inevitable because society and the elite class actually did create a social system that overwhelming benefited the rich. Those days are long gone and to blame the current economic system for poverty today is nonsense.
          For a person born into poverty it’s obviously much harder for them, but to deny there are opportunities to do so is a disservice to that individual who is looking for a way out. As the original poster pointed out, maybe reading some MMM crafted esp for those in poverty would be an inspiration for a kid who wants desperately to get out of poverty. I believe that kid has an excellent chance to get out of it, and I want that kid to believe it too, because that will give him/her the best chance to actually succeed.

          Of course there are myriad anecdotes about how people fall on hard times and end up in poverty. That is not the topic I’m discussing, my interest is in the people born in the cycle of poverty and how they can get out.

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          BCB December 12, 2014, 10:18 am

          I find this comment much less inflammatory than the initial comment, Frugal Bazooka. We probably agree more than we disagree. I just don’t think we can oversimplify the issue by saying that people just need to try harder. My point on the ‘lack of mentor’ argument is basically if you’ve never seen someone try hard and acheive success in your own life, then the pay off is not clear and that makes it less likely you are going to work hard. (Immigrants often emigrate with this as their primary purpose with good results as you state. They probably have friends/family member who have done so.)

          I really think lack of a role person is the root cause of so called “cycle of poverty.” Many poor children think that the only way out of their current situation is some form of a lottery ticket, whether that is an actual lottery ticket, or success in the enternainment business, sports, etc. In other words they pursue things that are extremely unlikely to deliver, because these are often the only “bootstrap” stories that children of color (and I concede that race based poverty is often what people talk about when we talk about poverty) see as people like them going from poor to wealthy.

          Getting an education, learning to run a business, etc. are much (a million times more) more common ways to escape poverty, but poor kids just don’t have the role models in their life to realize that the true way to escape their situation is by these means.

          MMM methods could work for poverty situations. I think the most powerful concept that he embodies is a positive attitude. Even if you are poor (which may make it more difficult to have this attitude), appreciating all that you have is an extremely poweful way to consume less and save more.

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          Frugal Bazooka December 12, 2014, 3:38 pm

          BCB,

          If we sat down and talked we’d probably agree on 95% of the issues we discussed. The fact that we’re both at this site speaks volumes about our positive attitude about life and people.

          My first post was slightly strident because I get peeved day after day reading the lies and manipulations in the media that send the message out to people struggling in life that there is no hope…that there is nothing they can do to make their lives better. That’s a lie that undermines so many people’s hopes and dreams that it’s painful. I will always believe that a vast majority of people can change their lives for the better and I want that message to get out to those people who need to hear it. Since it doesn’t get out thru the print media or the networks or cable or ANY media other than the internet – well that’s the frustration that makes me feel like Howard Beale in NETWORK!
          ; )

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          brooke December 12, 2014, 4:23 pm

          Oh also, your little gem of a comment “Guess what, you don’t need birth control if you raise your kids to not have sex until they can take care of themselves” is also insanely crazy. You can raise a child to do the right thing, you can shelter them from temptations, you can teach them as much as you possibly can, and they will still make mistakes. Abstinence teaching is proven time and time again to be absolutely ineffective, just look at Texas as an example. The state leads the country with pre-marital sex and teen pregnancy and has a state-wide mandate that only abstinence can be taught and contraceptive training is not allowed. Backwards, stupid, and ineffective. The key is mentoring both at-risk women and men BEFORE they make bad choices, pushing contraceptives, and implementing sex ed courses that actually make sense.

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          Tony H April 24, 2015, 8:36 pm

          Have you heard of someone called Ben Carson?

          He was a successful person from the getto that har no mentor. His mother was a single mother and on welfare.

          Do a Google search on Dr Ben Carson to find out how uneducated you sound. Good luck!

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          Kay in Mpls September 8, 2015, 2:21 pm

          Hi brooke. Thanks for speaking your mind. Where is MMM though? I’m reading all the posts and many comments from beginning and this is one of the most mean spirited threads I have seen yet. I’m not planning to comment on any one person’s “side,” just wanted to make a call somewhere in here for the more fair minded dialogue I’m used to on this blog.

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          Caroline Devitt December 15, 2014, 1:28 am

          Actually, it’s not true that “America is the only country whose poor are fat.” The same’s true of many countries these days.

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          Reader007 May 8, 2019, 11:29 am

          There will always be the poor among us. It has been true for thousands of years and will always be true.

          If poverty is being in the bottom 10% of income, say we triple everyone’s income (ignore the inflationary consequences), there will still be people in the bottom 10% and they will still feel that they are in poverty when they cant afford to buy what the 10% above them can. Its all relative… impoverished people in the US still have water, electricity, food, a roof, etc.

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        ABC December 10, 2014, 12:48 pm

        “….. stats for poverty are reported in the media as a continuing serious problem.”
        How do you suggest it to be reported?

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          Frugal Bazooka December 11, 2014, 10:42 am

          I would report it without the editorial assumption that in each and every case it’s the “system” that is creating poverty. I would report it without including the side by side comparison to the wealth of others which has absolutely nothing to do with poverty.
          And I would find a way to include information in that article about how others got out of poverty and a list of gov’t programs that are avail to assist people in their efforts to get out of poverty. In other words I would inject hope and optimism into any story that purports to be stating the facts about poverty. I rarely read facts in the media anymore without a nonsensical political narrative attached to the “facts”

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        Kenoryn December 11, 2014, 9:08 am

        “Why do so many high school kids and adults view education as a burden instead of a passport to a better life? ”

        You get your ideas and concepts about life from the world around you. All the poor adults were once poor children; they probably never had any successful people in their lives, probably never saw any examples other than what their own families did, and their families’ friends. They learned at an early age to distrust people, and that the world is a harsh place. When would they learn the lesson that hard work and education gets you ahead? They have no example for that. They see their parents working hard at crappy jobs and getting nowhere. Where would they get the belief that they themselves could be capable of more? Why would it even enter their heads?

        One of the most fundamental issues with poverty is soft skills – the basic life skills that those of use who were taught them from an early age take for granted. Basic things like self-control, getting along with others, etc. This isn’t just a matter of learning, in the same way that you might learn your times tables. It’s physiological. Consider:
        http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/12/15/poverty-negatively-impacts-childrens-early-brain-development/63305.html

        Consider also the broader trends that can be seen in children from poorer and wealthier families. Do you think it’s pure coincidence that children from poor families do worse in school? Is it that they just happen to be lazy, while kids from wealthier families are just, coincidentally, better at applying themselves, with no connection to their upbringing? You would have to be insane to believe that. It is clearly ridiculous.

        Our minds are subject to all kinds of environmental influence that we are not even aware of. For example, black students score lower on standardized tests if reminded before the test that they are black. Do you think poor students could be affected by the knowledge that they are poor? Do you think growing up feeling inferior could affect your behaviour and outlook and skill development? Of course it does! Here is an interesting article you might want to read on the subject of social influence on performance. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/opinion/sunday/intelligence-and-the-stereotype-threat.html?_r=0

        One last thing to bear in mind here is your own cognitive bias against the poor. Here’s a link to the “just world fallacy”, the belief that people who do well deserve it and people who don’t deserve that too, on a fantastic website that is great reading if you are interested in learning about and learning to compensate for/overcome your own biases and faulty thinking.
        http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/07/the-just-world-fallacy/

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          Frugal Bazooka December 11, 2014, 10:59 am

          Kenoryn

          Great post and I appreciate your point of view. Rather than focus on my cognitive bias or your cognitive bias – which will not help a kid in poverty succeed, I rather focus on how I can help a kid get out of poverty.
          IMO academia spends a lot of time trying to explain the reasons for poverty and but never enough time explaining the solutions. I agree that a strong healthy family unit is a major factor in reducing poverty – but that’s a tall order to solve. I rather focus on the individual who seeks a better life and is willing to put up with a lot of shitty circumstances to dig themselves out of it.
          I want to empower the individual to overcome whatever bullshit they were born into by doing just 3 things: 1. stay in school and out of trouble 2. avoid bad personal choices that increase the likelihood of them staying poor and 3. learn to use the system to their advantage. to learn to manipulate the fuck out of the system so they find a way out of poverty.

          This is no easy road, but it IS possible and I will never believe otherwise. Worrying about how unfair society is, the flaws in the “system” and people’s biases one way or the other serves no purpose – changes nothing – and achieves nothing.

          Telling a kid in poverty that they can succeed if they bust their ass and do the right thing all the time can, in my opinion, achieve something.

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          Kenoryn December 11, 2014, 5:33 pm

          I like your practical approach! I do, however, think that understanding the obstacles that people who grow up in poverty face is critical to helping people overcome those obstacles. And as long as people believe that poverty is solely the result of an individual’s poor choices, then nothing will be done to solve the larger problems that perpetuate poverty.

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          Frugal Bazooka December 12, 2014, 3:25 pm

          Kenoryn

          I completely agree that identifying the problem is the first step. The next step is empowering the individual. One of my goals in life is to do both of these things for as many people as possible. So far I’ve been able to help a few people get their lives on track…hopefully more to come! : )

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          Margaret December 11, 2014, 8:11 pm

          Um….I grew up poor in a trailer park. My parents were the definition of the working poor, but please don’t tell them. They worked long hours, and as many as 3 jobs at once to provide a life.

          While we were monetarily poor, we were by no means poor. We were loved and provided for. There was love and laughter in our house, but I as I grew older, I knew we were lacking money. Utilities were cut off periodically, and I could not do the activities my friends could. Even so,we were expected to do our best in everything – school, church, jobs. Our character was developed and expectations were set. Government assistance was for other folks who truly needed it.

          Fast forward to now – I am certainly not poor, and have a very, very comfortable life. I have worked very hard, and have been very blessed as well. I have been defeated and still looked to the future. The recession was a very difficult time for my family for a number of reasons. At the very hardest, I took a retail job for $8.10/hr. I worked hard, and soon was managing the store. Along the way, I have had dozens of people work for me of at the same wages. And I have financially mentored dozens through my church and Habitat. I have learned this – people are what set their minds to be. Successful, entitled, smart, dumb, victims, whatever – you can mentor them and some REALLY want change, but others simply want you to do something for them.

          The real riches in this country are the free opportunities afforded us every day. We can put the effort in or not. The other real opportunity is that we can start each day anew – be something we weren’t, something more than we were yesterday. But is does take effort. There are plenty of assistance programs – I know because I had to fill out paperwork for many people – some who were just in hard times and many whom for which it is a life. And in my personal experience, 60-70% of the folks are in the system for life. They can tell you all the loopholes and how to sell your benefits for drugs, what makes the gov’t give you more. You name it. Those folks are far more interested in “scoring” brand name sneakers and what’s on “whatever housewives” than figuring out how to be a more valuable employee. If you suggest they take a free class or get a GED, you will get a lot of excuses. When you’ve come out of poverty yourself, you recognize excuses.

          I don’t want children or people to suffer or go hungry, but we are really not understanding true suffering here. There are truly bad circumstances here in the US, but not as often as you would think based on the numbers. Much of the poverty in the US is self-inflicted under-achieving, because we sanction it. I know here in FL, we provide $500-$700/month in support to mothers whose children have the ‘diagnosis” of ADHD. Guess what we have an epidemic of? And I had an employee whose 16 yo son rec’d $700/month for schizophrenia (he isn’t – mom admits it), and he couldn’t make more than $1640/month and keep his check FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE. I asked here what she was going to do if he had gifts that might allow him to make $50k a year – would he change his thinking? She went blank – she couldn’t answer. And he’s a lazy worker. I know because he worked for me for week at holiday.
          We provide a lot of support and access here, and lots of people figure that out and succeed, others just use it to coast along. It is good to expect that more people strive and succeed at being a better version of themselves – whatever their gift, and not make excuses for their decision not to.

          Years ago, I learned that we make our job everyday by what we bring to the table. It is true. It is an attitude and a desire to be excellent that sets good workers, and those who get ahead, apart, regardless of pay scale today. I have promoted many an $8.00 worker of all shapes, sizes and colors, and it ALWAYS had to do with attitude and integrity. If you want to break the cycle of poverty, start with the lesson that you CAN, but you have to DO.

          Poverty isn’t just about money – it is about the tragedy of not bringing your gifts to fruition. The tragedy of living a life far less than you were created for. We all bring something special to the table of life – regardless of the economic value of it. What a total waste not to express it.

        • 

          Frugal Bazooka December 14, 2014, 10:54 pm

          Great post. I am inspired by people like you.

        • 

          vickie December 16, 2014, 9:55 am

          Amen!

        • 

          Matt G December 17, 2014, 4:11 pm

          I was also raised in a trailer park, a bad trailer park, with drug addicts, alcoholics, and child abusers. But I still came out okay. I am one of millions of people that were born into poverty and worked my way out of it (with the support of a great family and almost infinite opportunity provided in the USA).

          MMM is strongly against the ‘poor’. The poor are people that spend more than they make. The poor are people that make excuses instead of taking action. The poor are people that blame others instead of taking charge of their situation. The poor feed their addictions to fancy things, drugs, and immediate gratification instead of sacrificing for their future. The poor help themselves instead of helping others.

          Just because you don’t have money doesn’t mean you’re poor. You’re poor when you adopt a poor mindset. In fact, there are a lot people that make a lot of money that are poor. Look at the typical middle class family as an example of that.

      • 

        Jaclyn December 11, 2014, 6:57 pm

        Spoken like a true person who has never had to spend a day in your life worrying about where your next meal is coming from, how you will pay for electricity, hot water, and for a roof over your head. Education is a luxury. If your basic needs are not being met (food, water, shelter), you cannot worry about things like college. Hell, you can’t even worry about high school when you have to work just to make money to eat.

        You’re right. Education can do wonders for a person’s livelihood. I am living proof. But I was lucky and someone took me in when I was 16 and showed me that life didn’t always have to be a struggle. After my basic needs were met, they were able to teach me the importance of an education.

        I am going to leave it at that because this comment has me so pissed off I cannot even handle it.

        Reply
      • 

        Cheryl December 14, 2014, 6:34 pm

        I generally agree with you – there are a lot of people living in the American version of poverty with no excuse at all. I completely disagree with the idea that government programs or blogs (why are those even being categorized together?) don’t help. People are frequently in poverty due to a lack of education, and I would consider signing up for programs or doing lots of research online to be ways of getting education.

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      • 

        James December 15, 2014, 1:55 pm

        I’m with you. Grew up in poverty in the US. I mean, I literally starved, went without running water, electricity, and telecommunications. Dropped out of high school illegally at 14. Got my GED at 17 and went to university. Got a degree in Computer Science with a mediocre (3.01) GPA. Making 70k/year now, due for a raise by end of year to somewhere in the 75-80k/yr range at age 26.

        Not everyone can succeed, but virtually anyone can succeed. The reality is that if people actually pushed for even moderate amounts of success and took advantage of the options available to them, they could have it.

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      • 

        Vince January 16, 2015, 11:41 am

        You touched on education as a start to break the poverty cycle. In Indiana, the highest per pupil expenditures are in the large metro schools while the more rural schools are doing a better job on about half (in some cases) to 3/4ths of the same amount. A key to the better education is parental involvement. From what I have been able to observe, the better schools have a higher parental involvement in the school and in the child’s life. Hillary Clinton might have been correct with her “It takes a village”, but if the parents are not there, then the village means diddley squat.

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    • 

      Mark December 10, 2014, 2:15 pm

      I would say that when the middle class gets its financial act together, that WILL help people in poverty a lot. When you have fewer middle class folks dependent on paid employment, at least some of those jobs can be taken by those currently stuck on the lower rungs of the economic ladder. Furthermore, more people freed from paid employment means at least some of those folks will be willing and able to help those less fortunate. Just because all of these effects are indirect doesn’t mean they’re not powerful.

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      • 

        JB December 11, 2014, 8:14 am

        If everyone kept their cars for 15 years, the auto industry would crash. If everyone quit going out to eat, many restaurants would close up. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Portion sizes are huge, most of the food is average. My wife is a pretty good cook and I don’t know what I really get at a restaurant she can’t make that isn’t complicated.

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          James December 23, 2014, 8:33 am

          Fortunately, none of those things will ever happen. If there’s one thing you can count on it’s American consumerism. So don’t worry about it.

      • 

        Liz December 12, 2014, 6:04 pm

        That has to be the weirdest comment I have ever read on this blog. So because I am middle class, I am supposed to give up my job so a poorer person can have it? If this isn’t what you meant, please clarify….

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          Mark December 16, 2014, 5:27 pm

          Heh, ok I’m frustrated. That’s not what I meant. If more middle class people become financially independent like MMM, or quasi-independent (i.e. don’t need to people working full time), that automatically frees up more jobs for people who need them. People don’t have to give up their jobs to help poor people per se for it to have this pleasant unintended consequence.

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          JB December 19, 2014, 11:51 am

          if you are a mechanical engineer and you go start a consulting business, an uneducated person isn’t going to slip into your job. Also, there are only so many jobs out there that will service so many people. The world only needs x amount of accountants and lawyers. We also only need x number of ditch diggers.

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        James December 15, 2014, 1:57 pm

        Maybe a few, but the reality is that the majority of people who are currently well-paid enough to bootstrap their way into early retirement are engineers, nurses, accountants, and similar high-demand professions. We could graduate twice as many of these per year as we are and it would still take a decade before the market for them was saturated.

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    • 

      Guillaume December 10, 2014, 5:44 pm

      Then visit the early retirement extreme website where Jacob lives on 7k per year

      Reply
    • 

      Prudence Debtfree December 10, 2014, 8:30 pm

      Just to let you know of a great way to help low-income families (and/or frugal up your own grocery bills): Good and Cheap is a cook book designed by a student getting her masters degree in nutrition who wanted to provided a way for people using food stamps to eat sufficient and healthy food. “Eat well on $4 / day” is the idea. You can purchase copies for yourself at $20 each and for low-income families at roughly $5 each. Here is a link to order:
      http://www.leannebrown.com/buy/good-and-cheap
      (No one is making money from this. Not even the author.)

      Reply
      • 

        Leah December 10, 2014, 10:45 pm

        Thanks! This cookbook looks great. There’s also PDF you can download and share for free!

        Reply
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          Prudence Debtfree December 11, 2014, 2:07 pm

          That’s right. The only downside to the free PDF is that the people who would most benefit from it don’t necessarily have computers and printers. But for your own frugal groceries, it’s great!

      • 

        Chris December 16, 2014, 11:45 am

        Thanks! Saved this to print later!

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    • 

      femmefrugality December 11, 2014, 7:23 pm

      Wow, these comments really spiraled out of control. Anyone who thinks all public schools are created equally is crazy. The more money they have, the more likely they are to provide a better education, or heck, even just get the classroom under control. On top of that, it’s hard to focus on education when you’ve got a slew of other possibly life threatening situations going on in your neighborhood and possibly even home.

      There’s also cultural barriers. The subtleties we pick up simply by growing up middle class aren’t inherent in human nature; they’re learned. And when you’re interviewing for a job or trying to rub shoulders to network, their absence will be noticed.

      In order to get by, some poor depend on welfare systems. These systems are set up to discourage savings. Reach a certain point of assets, and lose your benefits. Lose your benefits, pour your savings into day to day living until you’re back at zero. Reapply for benefits. Rinse and repeat.

      This is an extremely complex situation. And to tell others they simply need to work harder is patronizing and missing a huge chunk of the picture. That being said, there are ways to dig out. And it does involve a lot of seriously hard work. Like others have said, use the system for all it’s worth. Welfare, financial aid for college, scholarships, job training programs…so many opportunities for aid are afforded to you when your income is low. Use them to raise your income. Because if you’re really, seriously poor, that’s the only way to get to a point where you’re able to use MMM’s sage advice. Raise your income.

      A lot of people in poverty don’t know about the programs that are available to them. The ones I have told about them can’t believe it’s true. Literally, can’t believe it’s true. Because they’ve felt so held back their entire lives that opportunities that sound too good to be true probably are. And most of the ones I do know work incredibly hard. Arguably harder than a lot of middle class people. And they do it just to stay afloat. There are opportunities out there. You just have to know they exist.

      Michael, if you have anyone specific in mind I’d be happy to help try to figure out what programs could help them get to a point where increased income is possible. So they can save. So they can stress less about getting by. So they can live better. It’s not a matter of working hard. Many are already doing that. It’s about directing your energy towards working hard at the things that will get you ahead, even if that entails using welfare programs to get there. Even that’s not always a fool proof solution. But you stand a lot better of a chance.

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      • 

        Prudence Debtfree December 11, 2014, 8:15 pm

        Love this comment, Femme Frugality!

        Reply
      • 

        Maxim Ч. December 13, 2014, 6:38 pm

        They work harder…but they sure as hell don’t work *smarter*. Generally, the more money one makes, the less hard one works.

        Reply
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        Michael December 16, 2014, 4:31 pm

        Fantastic comment/perspective, Femme Frugality. I don’t necessarily have anyone specific in mind. My wife and I both work for non-profits, and we see/help a lot of individuals and families who are struggling. We know a lot about the resources available. It’s just difficult, as you said, to get someone to divert energy to the right or most effective opportunities. Cheers.

        Reply
      • 

        9 O'Clock Shadow December 19, 2014, 3:42 pm

        What a great comment FF! Belief that you can change your situation from wherever you start is a simple and powerful Perspective. It is exactly why the “I did it so why can’t you?” posters here believe they can be dropped in any poverty-type situation and ‘make it’ – and I believe them too.

        When you’ve informed someone of the benefits available to them, and encouraged them to apply you are changing their Perspective. In cases where they don’t believe it is true, it is a radical shift. But if you gloss over the differences in someone’s situation, particularly if they are feeling hopeless, you will lose their trust, no matter how sound your logic is. The best path forward is to gauge the receptiveness of that person and advise accordingly, as so many here have written. And with that, the status of the person becomes irrelevant. You’re just there to observe, reason, and most of all to help.

        Compassion, Observation & Logic. It’s like having an electric car with snow tires AND All Wheel Drive !

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    • 

      Noa February 23, 2016, 1:58 pm

      He has already posted a case study for two people making minimum wage, and it uses the same tactics and shows it works well for them too:

      http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/26/reader-case-study-minimum-wage-with-a-baby-on-the-way/

      So do some reading before you do the requesting. lol

      (I am reading all articles chronologically, which is how I knew that article existed.)

      Reply
  • 

    Kenoryn December 10, 2014, 10:41 am

    While I agree that when you start out poor, you incur more expenses and it’s even harder to dig yourself out, I find it hard to sympathize with this particular article. She starts out by talking about losing her truck because it was towed. If she’s that hard up, you might first of all make really sure you don’t get your car towed, or even get a parking ticket, because that’s extremely expensive, but whatever, people make mistakes – but why does she own a truck?? A truck of all things? She did not work at a job that required her to own a truck, and with a 6-mile commute, she should not have owned any vehicle at all, at least until she had some savings built up. She could have sold the truck and bought a bike and decent used raincoat, and voila. Thousands of dollars of savings. No showing up to work soaked or sweaty (or leave five minutes earlier and bring a change of clothes in a ziploc bag in your backpack). That would be the obvious Mustachian advice to give for this situation, and if she had taken it she would have lost neither her truck nor her job and she would have had thousands in savings to cover unexpected emergencies. All her problems would be solved. Her $5/week savings would turn into $40/week with the money she’s not spending on gas and insurance. Super easy. With that extra money you can afford to, for example, buy the better quality toaster as she mentions in the article (but, obviously, you should be buying used anyway!)

    People who don’t have a job and can’t find one, or who already have made mistakes and have a lot of debt to service such that they are already living a Mustachian life and still not able to make ends meet – that’s where it gets hard. For them MMM gives advice about increasing their income, per the end of the minimum wage case study article. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/26/reader-case-study-minimum-wage-with-a-baby-on-the-way/

    Reply
    • 

      Nick December 10, 2014, 12:39 pm

      | She could have sold the truck and bought a bike and decent used raincoat, and voila.

      you’ve never been to Winnipeg. Only a few of us cycle in the -40 winter and it’s not that cheap. Studded tires, proper clothing, goggles are a must, etc.. AND ONLY if you have a decent route. My bikes usually only last 3-4 years as they rust out.

      Reply
      • 

        Kenoryn December 11, 2014, 8:35 am

        I think you are confusing the article I was commenting on (by Linda Tirado) with the MMM post. The article’s author is in Utah.

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    • 

      Kelly December 11, 2014, 12:39 pm

      The only fault I can find with your logic is this – sometimes people buy the vehicle that’s offered to them. The cheapest out-of-pocket vehicle at the time might have been a truck. That’s been true for me before. Also, you can’t ALWAYS reasonably live where you work, esp. if you’re very low income. So walking/biking 10 miles might be what they’re facing at that point. Also – not terrible if you’re working a sit-down job, but many low-wage jobs are very physical, so fatigue is a real issue when you’re talking about a 20 mile bike ride on top of an 8 hour shift on your feet. All this would be radically different if she lived 2 miles or less away (not always possible in a poor, rural community), but then you still have to contend to grocery shopping when the bus only runs once every 2 hours.

      All I can say is – poverty is exhausting. Anyone who says differently hasn’t been there.

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      • 

        Kenoryn December 11, 2014, 5:44 pm

        It certainly is exhausting, and one of the privileges of the middle class is that they are able to make financial mistakes like the author of this article with no serious consequences, whereas the poor have to get everything right.

        The author did specifically say her commute was 6 miles, which isn’t short, but certainly isn’t unmanageable. When she lost her truck she walked that distance, which is a little silly as it would probably take 2 hours. She would have been much better off selling the truck and biking, or even buying a scooter, at least until she could save up enough money to buy a small efficient car and still have a cash cushion.

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    • 

      Leo December 11, 2014, 8:12 pm

      Yes those were my thoughts as well. I think even more importantly is the attitude that saving is impossible. Of course you won’t save anything if you’ve already decided that saving is impossible.
      I’m also bothered by her logic against saving: “Of course you will never manage to actually save it; you’ll get sick at least one day and miss work and dip into it for rent. Gas will spike and you’ll need it to get to work. You’ll get a tear in your work pants that you can’t patch.”
      Yes those things might happen, but with some savings, that thing will not mean losing your job, they will just mean losing a bit of money. And when you can manage to hold your job down for some time, you can start to look at getting a raise, or moving to a higher paying job. Of course the start is going to be hard, and the savings small, but if you never start you will never get anywhere.

      Reply
  • 

    Jen December 13, 2014, 7:58 am

    I agree, that’s not what this blog is. I have to chime in because I am a divorced mom of two who makes about $20k a year and gets about $400 a month in child support. I also used to be married and have a wealthier lifestyle so I have a unique perspective of living on both ends of the spectrum.

    First of all, this blog fills a unique niche, people who SHOULD be able to live very nice lives on their income, but often don’t. When I worked for a big 4 accounting firm ten years ago, I was struck by how many of my colleagues were completely broke, even though they made good money. This blog is great for people who need to get their acts together.

    There are also tons of other blogs aimed at those in poverty, I know because I read many of them as well. Because I read a variety of blogs, I have managed to take a lot of their ideas and cobble together a nice lifestyle for me and my two kids. Most women in my situation are paycheck to paycheck, but my retirement is fully funded, my home is paid off (I moved to a low cost of living area after my divorce on purpose) and my kids want for nothing. My daughter takes piano lessons and my son takes classes at the local college for gifted kids (he’s ten). Unlike when I was a kid, they have never known what it is like to have their utilities shut off or to go hungry. In fact, we are headed to Florida for vacation in less than two months!

    I also have a job that is fairly flexible and I can mostly work while my kids are in school. If I needed more money to live on, I would have to commute 40 minutes away to the nearest larger city and get home at 6:30 every night instead of 4:00, like I currently do. No, I am not able to put away $5000 a month like many of the more well-heeled readers of this blog, but by applying mustachian principles I have a lot of freedom.

    Reply
    • 

      casserole55 December 16, 2014, 6:00 am

      Jen – Your story is truly inspirational. Congrats on a life well-lived! Have fun in Florida!

      Reply
• 

  Le Barbu December 10, 2014, 9:57 am

  In fact, some peoples are just “built” to seek for poverty. At my job, a single mom with “low income” (1/3 of mine) is leasing a brand new car every 3 years, make some bathroom renovations (big$$) and drive twice the distance/year than my 2 cars family fleet?? On top of that, her mortgage rate is 6,3% (mine is 3.5%) and she’s clueless when I try to introduce some MMM tips. I feel real bad about it since it is a truly good person and we carpool together, so, we share a lot and it makes me sad about her situation. I mean, I would not sleep at night, I don’t know how she does?

  Reply
  • 

    wwax December 10, 2014, 11:33 am

    You may not be the right person in the right place to help her learn differently. She may not think she has a problem that needs solving, according to everything she’s been taught since birth she is doing all the right things. Instead of telling show. Live your life as an example and let her ask questions instead of trying to teach someone that is not yet ready to learn.

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      Le Barbu December 10, 2014, 2:41 pm

      I know I cant help in any way but feel sad about it. You are right when saying “she’s been taught since birth she is doing all the right things”.

      In fact, she told me “I am doing pretty good managing money”. WHAT! I was just thinking, it’s not because you did not bankrupt yet you can proclaim yourself “good at managing money”.

      Are those peoples happier than us, being clueless? I feel so sad about that kind of story, especialy when they are real good persons…

      Reply
      • 

        Rob in Munich December 12, 2014, 1:45 am

        Holy crap, this is a discussion that would be better off in the forum than here

        Reply
      • 

        Cheryl December 14, 2014, 7:00 pm

        Been there! It’s incredibly difficult and awkward to try to give a friend financial advice unasked!

        I’ve got a friend who recently immigrated over and is still trying to get on her feet, financially. Her habits aren’t really that bad – no debt, picky about buying clothes even though she loves them – then she tells me she buys an $80 bottle of perfume every month and gets a massage once a week! She’s currently carless, but only because she can’t afford one until she’s got all her various immigration lawyer fees paid off. I’m car-free by choice and tried to sell her on the idea of biking, but she’s convinced it’s a death trap no matter what I say. Oh well, at least she knows to prioritize the legal fees instead of running out and getting in debt over a shiny car.

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• 

  Mr. Money Mustache December 10, 2014, 9:59 am

  Hi Michael,

  First of all – Jbo is right – this blog often tells stories of rich people, because it’s an anti-consumption blog at heart and we are the ones doing all the consuming.

  But second – the principles work perfectly for broke people as well, and that Slate article is actually bullshit. It’s an accurate reflection of the problems poor people currently encounter, but it is totally missing the point. But it will take me a whole article to explain it. It’ll be called “Mr. Money Mustache vs. Income Inequality”, and I think it’s long overdue.

  Reply
  • 

    Michael December 10, 2014, 10:03 am

    YES! That’s exactly what I’m talking about (see above reply). Thanks, MMM. I can’t wait to read it. Have a kick-ass day.

    Reply
  • 

    mike December 10, 2014, 10:41 am

    I would like to see that also.

    Reply
  • 

    LennStar December 10, 2014, 10:45 am

    I would like to read it. Because most of the people aren’t rich or even average.
    For example, in Germany 2013 the *average* income was 30.000€ (already not including the top incomes). The *median* (or middle income) was 20.000€. – thats before taxes and social payments, which start at 20% and increase.
    [Coincidentally these numbers are just a _tiny_ bit rounded and VERY easy to work with]

    So half of the population earns less then 20.000 while the “tax minimum” or “existential minimum” is a bit under 10.000€.

    So lets say you earn a typical moderately good income of my region – 1200€ on your hand (or bank account).
    Fortunately we also have low rents, so low in fact that additional costs are a big chunk. Lets say you need 500€ for all living costs, including heating, for the smallest type of flat.
    That leaves you with 700€ for ALL costs. Take away groceries and a few “necessities” like phone and internet and clothing, and you are at 500€ left – and you havent paid for anything except existing.

    Its hard to get “rich” with that. Not to mention the guys (or more likely woman) who get only 900€ instead of 1200€.

    Now put in a suboptimal situation (someone who you have to care for, including the need for a car to transport to the doctor (or pay a lot every time for the taxi) or just the single mom with 2 children who can be happy to have even this job) and you are quite stuck.

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      Christof December 10, 2014, 11:06 am

      Earning 1200 and living off 700 is a 40% saving rate. According to

      http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

      that is around 25 years of saving to retirement, so well in your 40ties if you don’t waste your time. That is still 20 years earlier than everyone else. In addition you can get a so called mini job which lets you earn another 450 Euros tax free by cleaning in the evenings. That shaves off another ten years.

      Is it easy and effortless? Not at all. But quite possible, indeed.

      Reply
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        LennStar December 10, 2014, 3:10 pm

        Its actually quite a bit lower.
        For once, I havent covered ANY expenses outside living – no restaurant, no presents for anyone, no museum, no bike – nothing.

        More importantly if you stop working (and be “rich”) you have to add health insurance (or cover the expenses, I prefer the save variant), which is I think a bit above 400€/month.
        So you need about 1000€ at least until you get into the normal retirement age of 67. That makes 300K instead of 210K. 7 more years.
        And we are still talking only about existing.
        And most people dont start at 20 or younger.

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    • 

      JOey December 10, 2014, 11:37 am

      The beauty of living in Germany is that you don’t need a car to bring somebody you have to care for to the doctor. In most cases these transports are paid for by health insurance and conducted by ambulance or taxi. (There is a detuctible of 5 euros.) That’s also one of the reasons why taxes and social payments are so high.

      However early retirement is extremely hard in Germany. That’s because a large chunk of your income goes into a government pension system. This system is not based on capital at all. So if you retire early you simply get a lot less than you paid into that system because the country thinks you should work until 67 (the retirement age is slightly lower for people over 52). And there is no opt-out.
      The 2nd reason why this blog isn’t very applicable in Germany (or Europe) is that many of MMM’s wise rules are simply considered common sense there and followed by virtually everyone.

      Reply
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        JB December 10, 2014, 11:48 am

        it is also very expensive to drive a car in Europe so that is why Public Transportation is more efficient and used. Germany is a small country compared to America. German are frugal by culture. Lots of services are “free” but really you pay for them in higher taxes. There just isn’t the room to have 4,500 sq ft houses everywhere like in America. Not that Germany is land locked, but when I was there, it seemed very zoned, very few subdivision like in America and that is fine. You create population density by keeping people living close together. That is why PT works better in Europe. Real Estate prices are high due to lack of supply.

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          Christof December 10, 2014, 3:23 pm

          My impression is that people in the US have no idea how good their public transport systems are. Sure, in some cities like Los Angeles it’s horrible. But I’ve been using public transport in San Francisco, Seattle and Chicago, and it’s just like in any Germany city. You don’t have a long distance train system like we do, but you do have a pretty efficient aircraft system.

          Higher taxes is another myth. It really depends on how your income and assets are structured and what you count as taxes. Our actual tax payment, including sales tax (or VAT) is between 35 and 40 per cent and we are – statistically speaking – a high income family. That’s inline with what I hear from my US friends. Germany has higher VAT, but lower property taxes. We have higher income taxes, but there’s no state tax. There’s less variety in Germany. About the only variable tax is a business tax, everything else is more or less the same no matter in which state you are.

          Healthcare and pensions are not paid from taxes, but they are often included in statistics showing “payments to the government” which is then treated as taxes. Those two are high. They are 35% of the gross salary. But health insurance, social security and 401K/IRA contributions in the US are high, too, unless you opt out which is harder in Germany.

          Germany is smaller. About the size of Texas with a quarter of the population of the US. That’s why we don’t have as large houses. The relative growth is the same, though. In 1960 each person had an average of 19 square meters, today it’s 45 square meter.

        • 

          Rob in Munich December 12, 2014, 1:54 am

          From the numbers I’ve seen taxes (including healthcare costs) are about the same, earn the same in the US or Germany and you’ll take home about the same.

          And for sure Germany has got best health care in Europe and Canada. The US is better only if you have money.

        • 

          JB December 12, 2014, 7:57 am

          outside of the NE with Boston/NY/DC and Chicago, most PT in the rest of the US is pretty bad. We are so spread out most cities don’t have the population density to support a great system.

      • 

        theFIREstarter December 10, 2014, 4:52 pm

        Ha ha Joey!

        I think us Europeans are a lot better at avoiding the volcano of exploding wastefulness, USA has forgotten frugal badassity very quickly over the last few generations.

        Many people in the UK still need all the help they can get though, and many countries are trying to copy America’s model of conspicuous consumption, which is sad to see.
        Let’s hope the MMM mentality takes over the world before that happens!! :)

        +1 for the Income Inequality article, love to hear your thoughts on that one MMM. Cheers!

        Reply
        • 

          Matt December 10, 2014, 5:11 pm

          In America i still feel that everyone can achieve financial security. Europe is socialized and redistribution of wealth results in not trying to get ahead in life. I see that happening here in America and it is sad. It’s becoming that it is more beneficial to do nothing than working hard. Redistributing is wonderful to the ones getting it. What happens when the person you are taxing to death quits the race or runs out of money? the 1970’s was a time like that. America should NEVER go done that road. Europe may like their free time but their economy shows it. People don’t push themselves and save than enjoy FI they want it the easy way. redistribution

        • 

          Jim December 11, 2014, 1:53 am

          That made me laugh. The statement “Europeans may like their free time, but their economy shows it”, is like Homer asking Lisa Simpson if the Germans have a successful economy because “we give them money”? I’d tend to agree that the consumer society in America has failed. As has free market capitalism, not that many Americans will admit it. The biggest redistribution of wealth in history happened when we bailed out the banks, the biggest exercise of socialism ever seen. But we had to bail out the banks partly because of runaway consumerism, the need to have the bigger house, the bigger car and incurring personal debt to get it.

        • 

          Mr. Money Mustache December 11, 2014, 10:21 am

          Jim, while I agree with some of your points, you might want to read “Stress test” by Timothy Geithner to understand more about the financial crisis.

          The bank bailouts were actually a transfer of bank shareholder wealth BACK TO TAXPAYERS, because the government made a $150 billion profit on the deal by the end of it. They were also a backstop that prevented a massive depression that would have cost the poor people much more.

          The bigger systemic issues are still valid – I just think people should discuss them without the open wound of the Treasury’s response to the GFC clouding the judgement. Good policy strategy during a financial crisis is way different from good policy during healthy boom times (i.e. right now).

        • 

          Dylan SMith December 11, 2014, 8:27 am

          The hardest working Europeans are also the poorest (the average Spanish working person works more hours then their German counterpart).

          I used to live in the US. I used to make more money living in the US, but in the s/w development world in the US you’re expected to work around 20 hours unpaid overtime a week (60 hours a week) and have 10 days of paid vacation. After leaving the US, I now work a 37.5 hr week and am not expected to work overtime, and I get 30 days paid vacation a year (plus bank holidays). If I stay another 4 years at my current job this increases to 35 days. While my gross salary isn’t as large, I am MUCH happier and I would never go back (and I bet I’m making significantly more per hour). GDP per capita isn’t everything. I feel much richer living this lifestyle.

        • 

          Frugal Bazooka December 14, 2014, 11:01 pm

          lol, MMM careful, you’re injecting facts into a very emotionally charged issue. People don’t want to hear that the gov’t did a good thing by bailing out the economy, esp since Bush started the bailout. How great is it that the whole TARP question confuses the shit out of conservatives and libs at nearly the same rate?

          lmao

    • 

      ABC December 10, 2014, 1:32 pm

      You’re confusing median and average.

      “So half of the population earns less then 20.000 while the “tax minimum” or “existential minimum” is a bit under 10.000€. “

      Reply
      • 

        JOey December 10, 2014, 2:41 pm

        NO.
        “The *median* (or middle income) was 20.000€. – thats before taxes and social payments, which start at 20% and increase.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median

        Reply
    • 

      RR December 11, 2014, 2:59 am

      Is this incorrect then?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

      I see here an average of 2.000€ net

      Reply
  • 

    Gaga Honk December 10, 2014, 10:52 am

    I’m looking forward to this future article as well. I’ve been reading a few articles recently about poor people in cities and poor people in city problems, and car ownership seems to be a constant cause of difficulty. Car breaks down, poor person loses job. Car is driven faster than speed limit, or car can’t pass vehicle inspection, poor person gets expensive ticket for speeding or driving without proper inspection, then maybe poor person doesn’t get to court (often because of car problems) and runs up court fees and other expensive penalties related to the failure to appear. Car accident, insurance rates increase, poor person gets poorer. That’s just a few of the examples I can remember off the top of my head, but it sure seemed like it was possible to trace back most of the problems I was reading about to car ownership.

    Reply
    • 

      tallgirl1204 December 11, 2014, 9:26 am

      I have a friend who is a bankruptcy lawyer. He said “it always starts with a car. They buy a car, can’t keep up the payments and take it back to the dealer. The dealer agrees to re-sell it, BUT the dealer will come back to the original owner to recoup any shortage between what the dealer sells it for and what the original owner still owes.

      The dealer has ZERO incentive to get a good price for the car, as the original owner is still on the hook for the difference. So the dealer gives someone else a “deal” and the original owner is on the downhill slide– if they couldn’t make the payments, they can’t make up the difference either.

      And so they end up in my friend’s office.

      Reply
    • 

      Cheryl December 14, 2014, 7:17 pm

      This is an easy one: Don’t own a car!

      *insert lots of people protesting that they approve of bikes in general but THEIR PARTICULAR SITUATION makes biking completely impossible.*

      Yes, yes, cars are very convenient. But you really CAN survive without them! Remember that time you imagined what your life would be like if you’d been born in a dusty third world country, or maybe a slum, but obviously you’d pull yourself out of it and be successful? Possibly there was some rap music playing at the time? Yeah. Well, do that. Cars are convenient, not necessary, and if you can’t afford one then don’t get one.

      *Cue chorus of protests about how unsafe biking is.*

      Shut up and do your research or I will kick you in the shins.

      Reply
      • 

        Lina December 17, 2014, 1:34 pm

        I hated my car payments so I sold the car. Last weekend when I was counting the cost of my vacation to Hawaii I realised that it was approximately the equal of the yearly cost of a car. I much prefer an exprensive vacation instead of car payments.

        Reply
  • 

    MTH December 10, 2014, 11:06 am

    MMM stole my comment. The nerve of this guy.

    “It’s impossible to win, unless you are very lucky.” A timeless classic.

    Reply
  • 

    EDSMedS December 10, 2014, 11:15 am

    “MMM vs I.I.” = Woot! This promise is a great christmas present! I look forward to nitpicking!

    Reply
  • 

    wwax December 10, 2014, 11:33 am

    Can’t wait for this article.

    Reply
  • 

    Steve December 10, 2014, 3:53 pm

    “The principles work perfectly for broke people as well”….if the broke people can follow them.

    A while back there was a forum thread about the MBTI profiles of this blog’s readers. A very large proportion of commenters were INTJs or something similar to that. INTJs make up 1-2% of the population, which shows what’s pretty obvious already: the readers of this blog are an absurdly non-representative sample of the population. Basically, the blog attracts super-rational engineer and programmer types, like you and your wife. And it’s no surprise that the “extreme” version of this blog, ERE, is written by a theoretical physicist.

    One thing the engineer/nerd personality type has in abundance is intelligence. I wouldn’t be surprised if the average IQ of the people commenting on here is in the 125-130 range, with a lot of people significantly above that.

    A bunch of things come with intelligence: for one, the ability to imagine situations years or decades away, which some academics call “future time orientation”. Dumb people live in the moment. Telling them to resist some temptation because of its consequences in thirty years is like speaking gibberish to them. They literally can’t imagine things that far into the future. That’s an exaggeration, but the trend is there.

    And resisting temptation is itself related to intelligence; there’s a growing body of academic research that links impulse control to cognitive ability. Smart people are better able to control their impulses. Sure, anyone can improve at that, but some people have a big advantage, like great athletes learning to play a new sport.

    So intelligence brings with it a number of traits that make a high-savings lifestyle easier. And nerd types have another “advantage”, if that’s the right word for it: a lower-than-average orientation towards status signaling. The stereotype about poorly-dressed engineers is pretty accurate. A lot of the MMM strategy involves trading status for savings. The reason consumers want F-350s is that, in their circles, F-350s are badass and bikes are for wusses. They could still ride bikes, but they’re normal they’re paying a psychological price for that. Engineer types find it far easier to take the low-status alternative. They’re not making a big sacrifice, because they’re sacrificing something they don’t actually care about much.

    I see a lot of contempt in the comments for people living paycheck to paycheck, but the situation is more complicated than some people here seem to admit. “If I was them I’d do XYZ” isn’t necessarily helpful, because you aren’t them, and you have a different utility function than they do.

    Reply
    • 

      BCB December 10, 2014, 6:10 pm

      I think the allure of proclaiming Mustachians as smarter (and let’s throw on better-looking) than the rest of humans in appealing but it is probably not necessarily true. The studies on impulse control (the Marshmallow Experiment) did not look for intelligence as a primary outcome but instead for life success. This makes sense because people that see the benefits of delayed gratification see the benefits of going to college, which (for better or worse) is the primary selection mechanism for success in America. I think someone with a low intelligence can probably see the financial benefits of not driving a truck but he/she probably won’t be looking for this information on an online forum…

      Reply
      • 

        Steve December 10, 2014, 6:49 pm

        The marshmallow experiment showed a correlation between subjects’ abilities to resist temptation as children and their life outcomes later on. One category of life outcomes measured was SAT scores, and people who resisted temptation better had higher scores (i.e. were smarter). But there’s a ton of evidence that people’s test scores tend be fairly consistent over time- small children’s intelligence tests are correlated with their SAT scores later on. So basically the experiment showed that smarter people are better at resisting temptation.

        By the way, I’m not at all trying to say that MMM readers are superior beings or something like that. I’m saying that they have unusual preferences, and that as a result they make unusual choices. The internet helps weird people find other people who are weird in the same way and reinforces them in their weirdness.

        Reply
      • 

        Why Did I Why December 11, 2014, 10:48 am

        If you disagree that Mustachians are significantly above average in intelligence and impulse control, you’re simply revealing how detached and insulated you are from normal people.

        To Steve: +1 everything you said. They’re different people from Us, and they’re oriented differently. If only they had some peanut butter, We could teach them to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, if they had some jelly. And bread. You can’t get there from here.

        Reply
      • 

        Doug December 17, 2014, 11:42 am

        Quite frankly I don’t know if we mustachian types are much more intelligent than average or not. I don’t consider myself to be of exceptional intelligence, maybe a bit more than average but definitely not a serious MENSA candidate. I think where I excel is just plain, ordinary, vanilla, bore you to tears common sense. In spending I look for the cheapest and most cost effective, and don’t give a damn about status or conspicuous consumption, never did and never will. In investing I buy into weakness and sell into strength. Recently I’ve been buying XEG-T and USO-NY (oil and oil companies). Why? Because they’re on sale now! It’s that simple.

        Reply
    • 

      Kelly December 11, 2014, 1:14 pm

      Oooh, well done! Astutely analyzed!

      much of the advice I see here reminds me of a time I was working at a store in the mall. It was about 10AM, and I was tired and yawning. I mumbled something about it feeling early. THe customer bridled and huffed “It’s 10 AM! It’s almost lunchtime! How can you say it’s early? You must have been up partying too late!”

      I replied – “Sir, what time do you usually get to bed?”

      “9 PM, every night. And I get up at 6.”

      “Oh, see, I was still at work then. I was at work until 10:30 actually, because the mall is open late around Christmas and we have to be here when they’re open. When I finally got off work, I had to go home, get dinner, do some cleaning, wind down, and then I could get to sleep. It’s often around 1 before I can actually sleep, because I’m trying to take care of everything. Then this morning I had to open the store at 8, so I’m still feeling a little foggy from the weird sleep pattern.”

      “Oh – why don’t you work a regular schedule? They can’t put you on regular hours?”

      “No, because this is my other job, and I have to schedule one around the other.”

      I think then he started talking about how I needed to get just one good job and get on a steady schedule, at which point I may have just groaned. Because my other job was my dream job at the time – acting and getting paid for it.

      It irritated me no end that this guy somehow knew what I should be doing with my whole life, when I was chasing my dreams. All because I dared to say I was tired.

      Reply
    • 

      Lee December 11, 2014, 1:44 pm

      Very insightful comment. But then, I’m an INTJ.

      Reply
      • 

        Monica December 15, 2014, 7:13 pm

        Lol. Another INTJ here but more poetess than engineer. On Sunday, I stopped for lunch (a sandwich + a beer + tip in Los Angeles = $15). While I am doing really well with the big stuff like minimizing consumption/maximizing savings overall, I still have a lot of room for improvement on the small stuff. As I ate (at the bar), I watched a young woman outside the restaurant decked out like a “gothilla” (i.e., black torn tights, misc died hair in hot pink and blues, torn jean shorts, etc.) panhandle with a sign that relayed how she was “poor, dirty and needing money” or something. What actually caught my attn was not her or her sign, it was that the entire time I ate, she was chain smoking cigarettes, talking on a cell phone incessantly, and drinking bottles of sparkling water. I am blessed enough to earn well upwards of six figures but choose to drive a modest yet lovely and reliable 15 yr old car, use Republic Wireless and live on about 30% of my take home pay. And frankly, there is a LOT of room for improvement in those numbers. I’m working on it because I love the principals of consuming less and contributing more, etc.

        I can see what some are saying, “they can’t help it” due to lack of intelligence, self will, vision for future, history of abuse, addictions, etc. But, the fact is, CHOICE plays a big role as well. We ought not discount the role of bad behavior/choices as a causal factor. There’s a good mix of personality, intelligence, and will power along with some flat out laziness that directly impacts the lives of many of the folks I personally know who struggle paycheck to paycheck. A couple years ago, a friend of mine called crying and asked me for several hundred dollars because his wife was in hysterics because their three kids had to have a ‘roomful’ of Christmas presents despite an otherwise perceived meager existence. I grew up in squalid conditions and horrible poverty myself and thought, that though I don’t personally need or value Christmas presents like those, maybe I’m flawed because I never had any. I gave them like $500 out of compassion for their pain but it was completely contrary to my own values because of what they wanted it for. I fear sometimes that I am too tough on others because of what I myself have survived. But, truly, I regret the decision. I would never do so again because I think that action was actually detrimental in the long run. Joy is not spending oodles of money or having a truck you can’t afford or a one week vacation for a family of five (different family but very current and true) when they are struggling to pay the mortgage. It’s as though people have commonly accepted that it is your “God given, American right” to have these luxuries. And, the thought of being deprived of them should elicit compassion from all those around them. The man asking for money for Christmas presents drove a vehicle worth ten times mine on bad credit (albeit my chariot is prob valued somewhere between 2-3k whereas he drove a Pathfinder that was only a couple years old).

        The question becomes then, how can people who don’t help themselves be helped by those willing and able to help? I think this blog and others like it that communicate a different vision of what life can be, are honestly way more effective in the long run toward creating sustainable change than handing dollars out a window… Maybe if this way of life becomes one that is oft talked about, the concepts will at least gain attention as viable alternatives. We need to shift the dialogue and expectations of this great nation of ours away from TV/reality star lifestyles to one that is more rational. And for that, I give my absolute admiration to folks like the MMM family and Jacob at ERE and Glen at tosimplify.net for making these alternatives public. What a tremendously great service to all.

        Reply
    • 

      TrixieLou December 12, 2014, 11:10 am

      I agree with your analysis Steve. And just to check it out I took the test again as I couldn’t remember my results, only to confirm I am a INTJ.

      I am often frustrated seeing young adults making dumb ass consumer choices that restrict their futures just to get that momentary thrill of ownership of this shiny thingy or that. Many North Americans are chasing that temporary lighting up of the brain chemistry one gets by owning something and plunge themselves into years of debt to pay for it.

      I think I like this blog so much because it offers relief from a culture that is everywhere bent on consuming. I get how for many the message here is like speaking gibberish to them.

      But for those of us of like mind, or who are ready to hear the message, this blog and the comments are so refreshing. Discovering this blog was such a relief to me as it provides a community where I feel I naturally belong. And an internet site where my bullshit detector is not always ringing. Along with the occasional face punch to tighten up my lifestyle choices.

      Reply
      • 

        Eldred December 12, 2014, 11:17 am

        Did you take the test online? And if so, what link did you use? Thanks!

        Reply
        • 

          TrixieLou December 13, 2014, 8:18 am

          http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

    • 

      Frugal Bazooka December 14, 2014, 11:05 pm

      Steve

      awesome post…it reminds me that no matter how similar humans are it often feels like we’re all living in multiple parallel universes.

      Reply
      • 

        Kathy Abell December 15, 2014, 12:47 am

        NOW I finally understand what those astrophysicists mean when they talk about multiverses … !

        Reply
    • 

      theFIREstarter December 24, 2014, 4:22 am

      Steve, great comment!

      Some people (the majority?) will find this site and then complain and say it won’t work for them, bla bla bla, I guess that is plain bad luck and they aren’t the right sort of person.

      Let’s not forget there are surely loads of INTJ or near enough INTJ types that have been caught up in the whole consumer lifestyle, maybe even living paycheck to paycheck or in debt, or ever in poverty, but haven’t yet discovered the tools to get themselves out of it. This site and ones like it give them the light bulb moment and then the tools to get on the right path (if/when they finally discover it).

      So basically I agree with you, telling certain types of people to just stop buying consumer rubbish, stop eating junk food and tone down the car use just won’t work. But I think it is relevant for a larger percentage of the population than just INTJ 1-2%. Much larger in fact!

      Full Disclosure: I just did the test linked to above and it came out INTJ (only 1% pref on the J) which is interesting because I did it about a year ago and was something different, maybe ENTP, INFJ or ENTJ. So basically I can swing either way on 3 of the properties depending on how I am feeling that day :) , but always end up with a strong “N”.

      I am thinking that a strong “N” is the greatest indicator of whether mustachian type suggestions will work for you, which adds up to 26.9% of the population so still a minority, but it’s good news for many people out there (If true!)

      (I think I read that Steve Jobs was an ENTJ. Not sure if he was frugal but very successful and I can see him being a mustachian type! I am also sure there are succesful people from all other types anyway!)

      Added up the percentages from this link by the way: http://www.ryzhakov.co.uk/how-to-be-normal-when-you-are-a-misfit-frances-ha/

      Reply
  • 

    Blerina December 11, 2014, 3:01 am

    MMM, I very much enjoy your work and thank you very much for it. It is for me a constant source of education and inspiration.

    My twopence contribution to this conversation:

    Poverty is as complex as it seems straightforward, and for those that are not under its regime, it takes some education and imagination to understand. Empowerment, is key for people to get themselves out of it. I love this model http://www.fii.org/ for the results it produces and for the lessons it teaches to both those that are poor and those that want to do something about poverty.

    My paternal grandparents were both illiterate and had a hard time feeding their family of six children (after WWII) and the countless people that would just drop in without knocking if they passed by the door at mealtime; the meal will be stretched with more water or portions would become smaller, or my grandmother would simply not eat… My grandfather was the only breadwinner, as a farm labourer. However, they send their four boys to university (with state funding; the perks of socialist regime!) and their two girls in professional schools short of university (their understanding of gender equality only got that far). All of the six children, and their numerous children who have children themselves today, are middle class (own their homes, have SME of their own, or a career), even if they live in a country that has gone through turmoil and has a shaky economic performance (Southern Balkans).

    It is possible to get out of the poverty MINDSET. Sure you need help to start but keeping to it is your job, and is quite doable.

    PS. My grandmother was disabled.

    Reply
  • 

    Franco December 11, 2014, 12:31 pm

    “the principles work perfectly for broke people as well”

    That’s right. The principles don’t change, just the amounts. Both poor and rich people spend too much on phones, cars, convenience foods and lots of other things.

    My wife and I have three kids, our combined income is way below the poverty line and I’ve still found this site very helpful and thought-provoking, as well as entertaining. Our income won’t allow us to save up half a million in a Vanguard account in nine years like MMM, but because of this blog I am way more attuned to all the ways we can put the dollars we do save to work.

    Really looking forward to the Income Inequality article.

    Reply
    • 

      Joshua Sheats December 11, 2014, 1:12 pm

      Not to pimp my own stuff…but to pimp my own stuff. I got so tired of this minimum wage crap argument that I created an authoritative resource on how to get rich with a minimum wage job at Walmart.

      I’ve received a ton of emails from people saying it has helped them re-think the whole thing.

      Consider the formula: http://radicalpersonalfinance.com/my-plan-for-how-i-would-become-a-millionaire-with-a-minimum-wage-job-at-walmart-rpf0043/

      Reply
      • 

        mrs.m180 December 12, 2014, 4:03 pm

        I was so excited to read this article (having had the same argument hundreds of times with deaf people), but then it was a podcast. :( Do you think it would be possible to create a transcript at some point? I lack a headset.

        Reply
        • 

          Joshua Sheats December 15, 2014, 9:44 am

          At some point, I’d love to make it a transcript. Just haven’t spent the money on it yet. At a couple of bucks per minute of transcription, it’s a ton of cost to have transcripts created for my 1 to 2 hour shows! Sorry!

  • 

    Dan January 7, 2015, 9:02 am

    Without taking away too much of the credit from MMM, I think 90% of the articles, examples, and individual lessons can be boiled down to something Cato the Elder said about 2300 years ago: “Emas non quod opus est, sed quod necesse est. Quod non opus est, asse carum est” (Buy not what you want, but what you need; what you do not need is costly even at a penny”).

    Reply
    • 

      Strabo February 2, 2015, 6:19 am

      Yeah, but Cato the Elder also advised you to let unproductive and old slaves starve to death instead of wasting money on them, so I still take his advices with a grain of salt.

      Although great cabbage recipes.

      Reply
• 

  CT Mommy December 10, 2014, 10:50 am

  Mr MM also did a case study on a minimum wage couple and one on a couple in debt…search Hair on fire on blog’s search tool and it should come up.

  Reply
• 

  Edward December 10, 2014, 11:50 am

  It’s not enough to get the most amazing financial advice in history for free? MMM must now solve poverty, world hunger, global warming, AND the conflict in the Middle East? Better get crackin’ MMM–your armchair critics are disappointed in your performance. The Pope, Obama, and the Dali Lama can’t do it all themselves, you slacker!

  Reply
  • 

    mike December 10, 2014, 12:48 pm

    Hear, hear Edward.

    Speaking of MMM solving all the world’s problems, I wish he had a “Like” button like The Daily Mail. That way I could “like” your comment. When I read an article I really like there, or I know the comments are going to be juicy, I go to the comment section and I’m allowed to choose “Recent Comments”, “Most Viewed”, etc.

    Reply
• 

  SteveCW December 10, 2014, 12:12 pm

  I feel like a lot of low wage people make some fixable income mistakes as well though they are on a much smaller scale than owning overpriced vehicles.

  The common ones are probably, paying too much for electronics. When I used to have a minimum wage job there were a lot of people working with me that had families, yet they still had money for big screen TVs to watch the Sunday football game and probably had kick-ass cable subscriptions. Not all of them of course but quite a few.

  Also you see a lot of low wage workers rolling around with i-phones on a phone plan.

  No doubt if your only available employment in this country is working minimum wage jobs then you are working harder than most people, but you also should be able to find a lot of government assistance for housing , medical and child rearing.

  While I don’t think people in this situation will ever really be investing, maybe at least you could help show them that they don’t need to be trapped by payday loans and credit cards and save a little bit of cash for inevitable emergencies or recreation.

  I think this blog could potentially help anyone able to maintain a stable job and income full time.

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• 

  Danny December 10, 2014, 12:14 pm

  > Most all of your posts like this (and most of your posts in general) are here to serve what appears to be middle class folks who are already kicking ass and just don’t know it.

  Yes, that is basically the whole point of this blog.

  > This story above? Easy. All your true readers knew what to do before you wrote it.

  Yet people keep coming back to read it. If we’re being honest, the blog has probably already covered 95% of what needs to be said about early retirement. But you have to keep posting to keep a blog relevant, to keep people reading your original message. In the blog world, go dormant and you’ll fall off of Google results, which is akin to death.

  I personally keep coming back to reading the blog because it reminds me why I’m saving. It’s like going to church to be reminded of your values.

  Why doesn’t the blog cover how to live as a poor person? Probably because MMM is keeping the blog focused and sticking to what he knows, like any decent writer should.

  I’ve never understood the kind of attitude that says, “You’re privileged, and you should feel really guilty about it!” There’s no actionable advice there, no suggestions to improve problems in America. Just generic, inapplicable criticism.

  Reply
  • 

    Jeffrey C December 10, 2014, 7:15 pm

    I think of it as “I’m privileged and lucky and I try to have empathy for others who aren’t.” I don’t feel guilty about my status, but I’m not going to make others feel guilty about theirs either when I have no idea what, if any, options have been available to them throughout their lives.

    Reply
  • 

    Why Did I Why December 11, 2014, 11:00 am

    Don’t write about living in poverty because you don’t know about it? “Sure, but those are the easy cases”

    Decide to write about poverty? “Hey Mr. Privileged, you don’t know what its like, I’m so stressed at my minimum wage job I need my TV and cable to unwind”

    Can’t win with these folks.

    And it’s not even that you need the high paying job to live a good life on $20k, it’s that you need to be rather disciplined, patient and smart. The job market in most western countries is actually quite fair, so disciplined, patient and smart people usually end up making a lot (even when setbacks such as taking care of a sick parent upsets the traditional HS->college->profession path). Unfortunately, those who could use MMMs advice the most (living paycheque to paycheque, low earners), are the least likely to be able to take advantage of it as they don’t tend to be disciplined, patient or smart. For redundancy: Disciplined, Patient and Smart.

    And the woman in the slate article needs a bicycle and a raincoat. Less than $100 total, used.

    Reply
  • 

    Her Grace December 14, 2014, 10:15 pm

    I’m a faithful reader who didn’t know a lot of what MMM preaches before I started reading his blog. My cousin pointed him out, and I went hard-core, and now I’m happily Mustachian.

    It all comes down to awareness and education.

    When I was a child, my father got injured and was out of work for a while. We lived in poverty. Boy, did it sting!

    In university, I spent a few years as an impoverished student because I was not financially savvy AT ALL. (Woe, my ignorance.)

    Post-uni, I got a job with a decent wage, but was frivilous in my spending.

    Twenty years later, I am now educated, thanks to MMM, and I’m much better off. I’m looking at early-ish retirement BECAUSE I GOT EDUCATED.

    Sure, I practiced a brand of frugality in my poverty years, but that was due to necessity and lack of choice. The moment I wasn’t so poor, I went back to foolish ways.

    I believe that MMM can benefit those in poverty by educating them on ways of good, better, best.

    Last year I read an articles (not related to finances, but to making choices) called “Good, Better, Best”. (Go google it, if you like. It has a religious slant on it, but the advice is sound for all walks of life.)

    We all make choices. Lots of people make poor choices, which is why they struggle to make ends meet on a US$100K+ salary. Some choices we make are good. What we need is the wisdom to stand back from our choices and determine if our choices are good, better, or the best we could make.

    That’s what MMM’s advocating here. I’m always pointing the impoverished to his blog.

    Sometimes we can’t help finding ourselves poor (like when my dad got injured and couldn’t work). But if we have the best mindset, we do not have to remain in poverty for long.

    It is the difference between me blowing $40K one year with nothing to show, and me now able to live plust invest with $30K.

    Reply
  • 

    frugal Bazooka December 14, 2014, 11:23 pm

    You can thank the media for this weird illogical logic that goes something like this: “if my neighbor has more than me, even if I don’t want what he/she has, life is unfair and either I should get what they have, or they should not be able to have it”

    The media has always had this attitude tucked subtly just below the surface of many articles on poverty and other economic hardship issues. It’s gotten exponentially worse within the environs of the internet “news” as college interns turned writers/bloggers have taken over a lot of the articles about economics (small e). That point of view veers from redistribution on the mild side to full confiscation on the far side. I always wondered what Arianna Huffington (worth half a billion) felt about the redistribution question her namesake often lobbies for.
    Of course anyone with half a brain knows that one person’s wealth has nothing to do with another person’s lack of wealth, but try telling that to someone who is looking for someone to blame. It’s a shame because a lot of energy is wasted on complaining, energy that could be used to improve lives.

    Reply
• 

  EcoCatLady December 10, 2014, 12:29 pm

  Michael, while you do have a point, I am living proof that early retirement can be achieved on a significantly smaller budget than the examples given here. Is it harder? Absolutely. Is it doable? Without a doubt!

  I started out my “professional career” (running a non-profit folk music school) in the early 1990’s making about $8K per year. Over the next 16 years I slowly… slowly worked my way up to the point where I was earning big money – $45K annually! At that point I had enough money between passive income streams and savings to quit my job (at age 39.)

  What it basically boiled down to was making good choices. In a certain sense, I think that if you approach it right, earning less can actually be helpful, because by default you’ve never adopted a spendy, spendy lifestyle to begin with. For me, the trick was to keep my spending low as my income increased. By the time I quit my job I was saving about 70% of my income. And to add further irony to the whole thing. My income actually increased dramatically for the first few years after I quit my job because making money was infinitely easier when I only had myself to worry about and not an entire organization. After a few years of that, with my savings bumped up significantly, I put everything into auto-pilot mode – which still earns me comfortably more money than I need to live on.

  No matter the income level, the same basic principles still hold – you simply cannot spend beyond your means. In order to do that on a slight income you have to employ some out-of-the-box thinking, but it can be done. Maybe you can’t afford an apartment and you’ll have to content yourself with renting a room in someone’s basement. Maybe you can’t afford to own a vehicle, or have a smartphone, or any of the other countless luxuries that people in this society seem to think are required for life! And maybe the standard “job” model isn’t the best way to build up a cushion – In my early days I built up a nice cushion by working seasonal jobs where my room & board were included. I worked at a summer camp for 3 months – all of my living expenses were taken care of and at the end of the summer I walked away with about $1500 – all of which went directly into savings. Not a bad deal…

  Anyhow, I could blather for hours on this topic, but suffice it to say it can be done.

  Reply
  • 

    Barb December 10, 2014, 3:28 pm

    I really want that “like” button too so I can note how much I love this comment and Ecocatlady’s story!

    Reply
    • 

      Mari InShaw December 11, 2014, 6:33 am

      Agreed! On other blogs I think people say : THIS!
      I bow down to you EcoCatLady and your ability to save, spend less, and have a cushion that you can put on auto-pilot. What MMM needs to do is gather your story and others like you to show it can be done, even on a low income.

      Reply
    • 

      EcoCatLady December 11, 2014, 5:27 pm

      Awwww shucks…. Thanks for your kind words. To be honest, I think my “secret to success” is a deep and abiding hatred for societal BS. Seriously, I found “normal” life to be so incredibly horrific that I was willing to do just about anything to get away from it!

      Reply
      • 

        Elizabeth December 11, 2014, 6:28 pm

        EcoCatLady, hear hear! I found ‘normal life’ in North America so unpalatable that I ran off to Asia over a decade ago – and haven’t looked back.

        Reply
• 

  Mike December 10, 2014, 1:23 pm

  Let’s face it; not everyone can be saved. Some do not have the mental / physical means and there are safety net programs for them. Others refuse to heed good advice. The concepts of MMM are simple and can be followed by anyone willing to do the work; Maximize Earning Potential. Minimize Spending. Maximize Your Life. It’s just that simple; for some, it allows them to retire in 7 years. For others, they may still need to work 35 years to retire, but they will have much more security in their life. There is so much free or low cost education available on the internet, in libraries, and in public schools, that there is no excuse for not increasing your earning potential (I do not say income; you ought to be able to earn more without working more hours / week). It takes time. It takes practice. It takes dedication and a strong attitude.

  Reply
• 

  Alice December 10, 2014, 3:31 pm

  I just wanted to make a comment about poverty line. We have 11,000,000+ illegal immigrants in this country. They come to get a better future for their families. They do not speak English, have low education but their willingness to do anything gives them a huge advantage over very poor segment of Americans… who are just NOT TRYING. We have government housing, free school system, scholarships and financial aid for higher education, food stamps, unemployment insurance, welfare and Medicaid, free counseling and advice for any life situation, etc, etc, etc.
  If with all that help a person who was born in this country is struggling with poverty then that person is simply not trying.. and this site is not for them.

  Reply
• 

  Josh December 11, 2014, 9:55 am

  He did a case study maybe a year ago about a couple who both worked minimum wage jobs and the wife was expecting a baby. Life changes there would have helped them too. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/26/reader-case-study-minimum-wage-with-a-baby-on-the-way/

  I realize that most of us have never experienced true poverty, and hopefully, never will. It feels like walking on egg shells when you hear about someone’s life and you don’t know if you should give advice without being condescending because you haven’t lived in their shoes.

  Reply
• 

  Dragline December 11, 2014, 10:47 am

  While there are many impoverished individuals, Linda Tirado ain’t one of their true representatives. She makes a good living selling her “story”, though. Please don’t feed that beast — like the Rolling Stone UVA story that was recently disavowed, public support of fictional narratives only makes it harder on the people who are actually suffering.

  http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artattack/2013/11/that_viral_poverty_thoughts_es.php

  http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5650&p=81923&hilit=tirado#p81923

  Reply
• 

  BMN December 12, 2014, 11:29 am

  Hi Michael – check out this MMM case study from back in 2012, I think it’s what you’re looking for:

  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/11/07/reader-case-study-yeah-but-how-about-a-difficult-life/

  Reply
• 

  casserole55 December 14, 2014, 6:11 am

  Way back in 2012 MMM presented a case study of a family that had about 50k income and 5 children. Check it out. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/11/07/reader-case-study-yeah-but-how-about-a-difficult-life/

  Reply
• 

  Moorm December 15, 2014, 12:43 pm

  I’m amazed that this lady considers her $75k salary ‘average’. I make a third of that, and I’m still saving %50.

  My roommate makes around the same as I do, but he was raised by poor people, and so has no money at all. Although he does have a very impressive DVD collection…

  Reply
  • 

    Eldred December 15, 2014, 8:11 pm

    I’m amazed(and impressed…and jealous) that you can save 50% of a $25k income! How much is your rent, if I may ask? And I’m ‘assuming’ you don’t have a car either?

    Reply
• 

  Arnold22 December 19, 2014, 6:14 am

  Hello Michael, I mostly 2nd your question. Differing on one point, The words “in this country”. It has political overtones as in poverty is only a problem “in this country”, it’s an issue in virtually every country. So I repeat your question purely from a non-political, strictly financial point of view.

  Reply
  • 

    sarah December 23, 2014, 11:27 am

    This is a great conversations above! I’ve read most arguments, and I do feel like there’s one point no one made fully yet.

    The people you are surrounded by, more often than not, determine your success. It’s the most logical reason why all of the above problems discussed above keep happening, ie: dropping out of school, teenage pregnancies, eating nutritionally poor diets, staying in minimum wage, etc.

    ‘You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.’ Jim Rohn

    If your parents, your siblings, your extended family, your closest friends are all doing the above things, how likely is it that the average person will decide to choose an opposing path? And in this argument, I’m not talking about outliers. It’s not that it can’t be done. It’s not that there aren’t beautiful success stories (even in this comment feed). It’s only that it takes a stronger will, a more creative mind, higher confidence to see yourself taking a path no one around you is taking.

    I’ve seen this theory change my life, even in much much smaller ways. When I’ve changed my immediate friend group from one less supportive/more negative to one of people who dream big/think positively, I’ve seen INCREDIBLE changes in the type of opportunities that come my way.

    http://lifehacker.com/5926309/how-the-people-around-you-affect-personal-success

    Reply
• 

  Megan January 12, 2015, 10:38 am

  Case studies that discuss how to achieve mustachianism when you’re poor:

  “But How About a Difficult Life?”: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/11/07/reader-case-study-yeah-but-how-about-a-difficult-life/

  “Minimum Wage with a Baby on the Way”: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/26/reader-case-study-minimum-wage-with-a-baby-on-the-way/

  “How Can I Climb Out of the Gutter?”: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/29/reader-case-study-how-can-i-climb-out-of-the-gutter/

  Reply

kikispal December 10, 2014, 9:56 am

• 

  Chris December 10, 2014, 10:23 am

  Can’t she just roll it over to the Canadian equivalent of an IRA so she has no taxable implications? MMM was saying that this can be used in the retirement phase, not right away…

  Reply
• 

  HD December 10, 2014, 10:33 am

  Spot on.

  You beat me to it ;)

  Reply
  • 

    SoCold December 10, 2014, 2:16 pm

    She’d have to have the contribution room available to avoid tax. Unless their existing RRSP is her husband’s, she may not be able to shelter the full amount.

    Reply
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  Jason G December 10, 2014, 10:43 am

  I actually think this case study is to aggressive in my opinion. 280k might compound enough to take care of her retirement at age 55, but her poor husband will be farther away from early retirement as a result. Most of the husbands income will be funding the family’s living expenses. He will be lucky yo save 20k a year. I think they should get rid of the cars, possibly move to a smaller house, and plan on reaching early retirement TOGETHER in ten years. A lot of women can “retire” now at the expense of their husbands potential to reach early retirement, but I find it extremely selfish of the wife unless her main motive is related to the upbringing of their children. The men in the world want early retirement too!

  Reply
  • 

    BCB December 10, 2014, 11:36 am

    I think if you have young children, retiring one spouse has a better ROI in terms of allowing the children to spend significant time with one parent. Most of us lack the badassity to FIRE before having the kids like MMM but one spouse FIRE is better than none while the kids are young IMO.

    This, of course, depends on people priorities. I think that there is a lot of value in having one parent home to mentor the child. This, however, implies that the stay at home parent is going to interact with the child and not just sit the little ones in front of th television!

    Reply
  • 

    Marcia December 10, 2014, 12:03 pm

    Selfish? YMMV, but the working spouse certainly gets the benefit of the SAH spouse.

    A lot less stress with much of the home care done by the at home spouse. Whatever the “goal” is, the at home spouse takes care of the kids/ household generally.

    “early retirement” sounds great except when you realize it means laundry, homework, oil changes, yard work, grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, plumbing, PTA volunteering. I’m sure my spouse would love to not have to do any of the shopping, dishes, or laundry, which get crammed into nights and weekends.

    Reply
  • 

    insourcelife December 10, 2014, 12:25 pm

    “Move to a smaller house”? A family of four living in a 1,200 sq. foot home is already living in a smaller house. If I recall correctly, MMM’s family of 3 lives in a 1,500 sq. foot home now. Maybe they (the subject family) can find a cheaper home closer to husband’s work but personally I wouldn’t go for anything smaller than 1,200.

    Reply
    • 

      Rachel Erin Horsting December 10, 2014, 3:46 pm

      I’m sorry, but house size comments always get me. I now live happily in just about 1100 sq. ft with a family of six. It is the largest place we have every lived in. When we had 4 we lived in half this square footage, and with five we lived in 800-900 sq ft, and our apartment was considered HUGE by our neighbors (this was in a neighborhood right outside the walls in Rome). I thought MMM’s previous house was absolutely absurd for someone with his values, but at least he right out admitted it was insanely luxurious.

      Small houses are a great way to reduce your need for stuff, your heating bills, time spent cleaning, and so on. If the layout is right, there are a lot of advantages. And we even love to throw parties and entertain =).

      Reply
      • 

        brydanger December 10, 2014, 9:11 pm

        Couldn’t agree more.
        Yes, house size comments are a trigger for debate given a huge variety of preferences… but a smaller house may easily be the biggest factor for changing finances and lifestyle. In our case- downsizing (and using our home creatively) is almost the entire reason we can live free.

        I completely understand why people are accustomed to and enjoy larger spaces, but once you factor in that luxury costing you decades more of work (which typically means you are also out of that home more than you’re in it)… I just struggle to see the attachment.

        For us 480sqft is home (and luxurious at that).

        Reply
    • 

      Jason G December 10, 2014, 7:01 pm

      @insourcelife,

      Yah 1200 sq. is about right. That particular component of my response was poor reading comprehension on my part.

      @ Marcia

      The working spouse does receive some benefit, but in reality maintaing a house , especially a 1200 sq. house, should not take much longer than six hours a week. I can keep my bigger house relatively clean with two hours a week of chores. Yard work is an hour a week and I practically have a Forrest in my back yard.

      Taking care of small children is a full-time job, but when the kids start going to elementary school the stay at home parent has the better deal. When the kids are teenagers the stay at home parents total contribution is questionable.

      My life partner and I have discussed rotating the stay at home parent position every two years. However we will likely power on through with our full time jobs so we can both retire in our mid 40s.

      Reply
      • 

        Marcia December 14, 2014, 10:28 am

        Hm. I would argue that when kids are teenagers, it’s even more important to have a parent there – not necessarily “at home” but more “at home after school”, and studies bear this out too.

        As far as house maintenance goes, sure keeping it clean and all won’t take that much time (if you aren’t dealing with very small children), but laundry, grocery shopping, cooking, and dishes still can take up quite a lot of time.

        Not to mention volunteering, which a lot of SAHPs find themselves involved in at the school.

        Reply

Lance December 10, 2014, 10:32 am

TuxedoEagle December 10, 2014, 10:47 am

Mr. 1500 December 10, 2014, 10:55 am

• 

  LennStar December 10, 2014, 11:02 am

  Especially the last. You could get 10.000 out of selling the big and buying a small – not to mention insurance and fuel savings.
  How old are you?
  How much does it add up until the normal retirement age considering every future car? 30000? 50000? With interest? 100K? 200K?

  Reply
  • 

    Mr. 1500 December 10, 2014, 11:40 am

    Exactly, it’s what you could have done with the money. We bought our Honda Element new in 2003 (another dumb move). I like to tell people it cost me 50K because that is what the money would be worth today.

    That Indexview tool that MMM blogged about recently is a prefect tool for quick calculations like this: http://thume.ca/indexView/

    Reply
• 

  Holly December 10, 2014, 12:28 pm

  Same here. We have a second car, a 2007 Dodge Caravan. The insurance is cheap, but I rarely ever drive it since I work in a home office. Like maybe once per week. I often think we could easily share a car, but then there will be this one crazy scenario where we need two cars occasionally. It’s easy to just keep it since it is paid off and has been for some time.

  I go back and forth with it. I have a family member who might be needing a vehicle soon (and can’t afford one) and I am considering gifting it, at least for a set amount of time. That way we could experience the one-car life and see if it really works.

  Reply
• 

  Everett December 10, 2014, 3:31 pm

  If you have unused vehicles that you aren’t using, but don’t want to part with, consider renting them on RelayRides.com. Depending on the vehicle and your location, you may even make money faster than your vehicle in depreciating.

  Reply

mr magoo December 10, 2014, 11:33 am

Sarah December 10, 2014, 12:10 pm

Mortgage Free Mike December 10, 2014, 12:51 pm

• 

  Andy December 11, 2014, 8:03 am

  Mike,
  Certainly it’s a cost that they share, but I think MMM’s point was that it’s only a necessary cost while they both work. If one of them can be at home, it’s no longer a necessary expense, so it makes sense to factor the entire cost in a comparison between her current job and a possible future with no job. By quitting, they save all of htat money, plus the driving money and other things MMM mentioned. So you put all the potential savings side by side with what she’s bringing in at her job now to see if it makes sense to continue.

  Reply
• 

  Self-Employed-Swami December 11, 2014, 8:21 am

  Actually, the daycare expense is a byproduct of both of them working. Get one stay at home parent, and that cost goes away. This reader wants to stay home, so he ran the numbers with her staying home, but it works both ways.

  Reply

Syed December 10, 2014, 1:09 pm

Christo December 10, 2014, 1:32 pm

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  Mr. Money Mustache December 10, 2014, 8:16 pm

  Ahh, I’m glad someone asked that. You need to put on “clothes” when traveling outside in such an environment (roughly the same weather I lived with for my first two years after graduation). Walking in cold weather is a hell of a lot more fun than driving!

  Reply
  • 

    Jack December 11, 2014, 1:51 am

    Speaking of cold weather clothing and cutting costs…

    There is a fellow in Utah named Jim Phillips who may be of interest to your readers. Jim and his
    dad were avid snow campers who got tired of being cold. Over the years they perfected the “Phillips Arctic Living System” (P.A.L.S) consisting of open cell polyurethane foam – the same stuff used to upholster furniture. Using home made clothing made of this stuff they went on a two week camping trip in Alaska during the winter without the need of a camp fire. The bush pilot
    that dropped them off took a photo of them before leaving them to give to authorities, so sure was he that they would perish in the arctic winter. They were waiting at the appointed pickup time
    much to his amazement two weeks later. (They had a great time on that trip)

    We purchased a set of his 1/2 inch foam long johns to experiment with. They ain’t pretty – you
    look like a tele-tubby wearing them. But they keep you warm and dry. We spent a winter with
    the thermostat set down to forty degrees – you could see your breath in the house! But the house
    doesn’t care and we were warm and toasty that winter and our propane useage was insanely low.
    You know it is cold when your tooth paste freezes! Extreme measures such as this helped us to pay off our mortgage in under five years.

    Jim did an experiment for a local newspaper on a dare. He cut a hole through the ice of a pond and
    immersed himself to the point of hypothermia in his clothing. Climbing out he squished out as much water as he could from his foam clothing and got active to generate body heat. Then he spent the night sleeping on the ice in his foam sleeping bag. By the next morning he was not only alive, he was dry.

    My point is many of the luxuries we count as essentials are optional when you have the proper knowledge and equipment.

    Reply
  • 

    L December 11, 2014, 6:25 am

    As someone who grew up in Winnipeg and has lived in Ottawa most of my adult life, it isn’t even close. Winnipeg is far, FAR colder than Ottawa, and for a considerably longer amount of the year. The roads are also not plowed adequately, and the sidewalks not at all in many places (at least this was true during the years I lived there).

    On the other hand, the transit system is adequate and far cheaper than driving, with much less risk of severe frostbite compared to walking.

    Reply
    • 

      Blender February 6, 2017, 9:15 pm

      The transit system is terrible for anyone living in the suburbs. Especially for shift workers. I spent a month using transit before biting the bullet to drive and pay for downtown parking. Luckily since I was working for the government my parking fees were significantly reduced ($3.50/day).

      Bussing to work required 1 transfer. I’d catch the bus at 5:30 am and arrive at work around 6:20 am. Not bad.

      However bussing home required 2 transfers. I’d catch the bus at 6:40 pm. First transfer was a 40 minute wait since the rush hour route is over. 2nd transfer required me to phone the bus that was active in the area since the normal route busses no longer run. Time home: 9 pm.

      Driving to work I’d leave at 6 am, arrive at 6:20 am.
      Driving home I’d leave around 6:40 pm and arrive at home at 7:00 pm.

      Bussing = 3 hours
      Driving = 40 minutes.

      Reply
      • 

        Mr. Money Mustache February 7, 2017, 8:07 pm

        Yikes! It sounds like the problem is the suburbs, rather than the public transportation – even a 40 minute drive is a life-crusher.

        Reply
  • 

    Eldred December 11, 2014, 7:55 am

    Oy – you have a WILDLY different idea of ‘fun’ than *I* do… I would MUCH rather drive than brave zero degree temps(or even *20* degrees) by walking…

    Reply
    • 

      Cheryl December 16, 2014, 7:54 am

      I thought so too, until I tried it.

      I HATE cold! DETEST it! I’m on my first winter car-free right now, and thought for sure I’d wuss out and be searching for a cheap car by now. But I’m not tempted at all! The reason is that when I bike I’m exercising, and I heat right up! Indeed, I remember a lot of morning previously, shivering in a car and waiting for the heater to warm up, then get the car heated up. My jacket, on the other hand, heats up practically as soon as it’s on, and I’m often sweating and thinking I should have gone with one less layer after all within two miles.

      Granted, I live in Dallas, but we do get freezing temperatures mornings, and I’m a wuss. If I, with my wussy, heat-adjusted, cold-hating self, and my wussy Dallas-level jacket, can be comfortable, anyone can buy some decent gear and be comfortable! That’s what the gear is for!

      Now, anyone got any advice for biking through the 105 degree summers?

      Reply
      • 

        Eldred December 16, 2014, 8:16 am

        What kind of jacket(s) to you have? I’ve never been TOO hot when biking or walking in cold weather. And I can’t seem to find gloves that keep my hands warm for longer than about 5 minutes. :-(

        Reply
        • 

          Jonathan December 16, 2014, 9:13 am

          I can’t speak for the jacket, but I picked up a pair of Pearl Izumi PRO Softshell Lobster Gloves ($80) for my 16 mile bike commute. It was hard to pull the trigger because of the cost, but I’ll make it up in only 8-10 rides into work.

          My only complaint is that my hands sweat even when the windchill was 18F. That’s a good problem to have though.

        • 

          Kelly December 16, 2014, 11:02 am

          It’s all about layering. Long underwear to start, or a tight-fitting shirt and leggings, heavier pants and a medium/heavy weight shirt (fleece is nice), and a windproof type coat on top, maybe rain pants too. Two pairs of socks, or one good pair of cold-weather wool hunting socks, and a thin pair of gloves inside heavy hunting gloves/mittens. If you’re at a loss, head to your nearest Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, or Tractor Supply – you’ll find everything you need to stay warm outdoors for 8+ hours at a time!

        • 

          Cheryl December 17, 2014, 11:36 am

          Being from Dallas, and detesting cold as I do, I can’t give cool detailed answered like everyone else. It’s a jacket. What kind? Um… fluffy? : D Nothing fancy.

          Gloves are AWESOME! I went to my bike shop and they had each pair labelled with what temperatures it was best for. So, ask your local bike shop or other outdoors shop, they’ll know what you need for your area.

          I also second the “layers” suggestion. I put on some leggings under my sweat pants as needed, and sometimes stuff a raincoat/windbreaker around my jacket, and even put a sort of ear-muff-headband-thing on under my helmet. This being Texas I can get away with not worrying about extra cold-resistant socks or shoes, scarves, or any sort of mask arrangement. But the point is, those things do exist for you unfortunate northerners!

  • 

    Lisa December 11, 2014, 8:16 am

    I agree with MMM. I lived in Yellowknife, NWT, Canada (North of 60 degrees) for 6 years where temperatures are frequently below -40C. It was far better to walk or bike (yes, bike) to work than it was to try to drive in an ice block with 4 square tires! If dressed appropriately, walking was warm and comfortable – the car, not so much. Interestingly, Yellowknife is rated in the top 5 for places in Canada to walk or bike to work despite it’s long, cold and dark winters.

    Reply
• 

  Winnipegger December 10, 2014, 9:15 pm

  I do it all year around. You buy a good set of winter clothes and put them on. In fact, I rarely wear anything more than jeans for my footmobile commute, though many people I know wear longjohns or skipants. Add a down jacket, toque, scarf, good mitts and some boots rated to -30 and you are ready to roll.

  Also, walk faster. It keeps you warmer and gets you out of the cold quicker.

  Reply
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  Winnipegger December 10, 2014, 9:16 pm

  I do it all year around. You buy a good set of winter clothes and put them on. In fact, I rarely wear anything more than jeans for my footmobile commute, though many people I know wear longjohns or skipants. Add a down jacket, toque, scarf, good mitts and some boots rated to -30 and you are ready to roll.

  Also, walk faster. It keeps you warmer and gets you out of the cold quicker. And it sure does beat sliding around in your car or siting on a seat that is -40C as well.

  BTW, MMM: It’s Winnipeg, not Winnepeg.

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  David Cain December 11, 2014, 1:27 pm

  HAH! HAHAHAHA!

  Many of our fellow Winnipeggers actually WORK outside every day. I did it for ten years and I knew a ton of workers who have done it for thirty or more. Any cold is manageable. Long johns and wool socks do wonders, especially when you’re only outside for thirty minutes instead of eight or ten hours.

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  Kristina December 11, 2014, 2:15 pm

  While I haven’t spent a winter in Winnipeg, I did grow up in Edmonton and spent a winter in fort Mcmurray… Let me tell you when the plastic door handle, windshield wiper, shifter, trunk release etc. breaks off in your hand when your trying to jump start your car because you parked just a little too far from the plugin, or turned it off just a little too long, or let the tank fall under half full… Walking is soooo much better! And you really should be prepared to dress the same way in case you have car problems anyway.

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  Dylan Smith December 12, 2014, 6:41 am

  By putting one foot in front of the other, repeat, until work is reached!

  Smart-alek comment aside, Billy Connolly (the comedian) once observed very accurately, “there is no bad weather, only the wrong clothes”. A good wind proof and warm jacket, hat, gloves, etc – basically skiing gear, will allow you to walk places in very cold weather while remaining reasonably comfortable. Any clothing made to keep you warm at 12000 feet in the middle of winter will work and it’s available from most outdoors types stores.

  Reply

CTY December 10, 2014, 2:08 pm

Okara December 10, 2014, 4:00 pm