Making Space for Badassity

aleksey July 13, 2016, 2:45 pm

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  Dividend Growth Investor July 13, 2016, 3:26 pm

  The sad part is that very few students would really apply themselves to learn the concept of basic personal finance, even if it is taught in schools. Ask yourself, do you remember much from high school? Many people do not take everything seriously until later in life..

  However, those few souls might be able to learn and really improve their lives for the better.

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    Stockbeard July 13, 2016, 4:49 pm

    I can confirm I never had a single hour of “basic personal finance” taught to me in school. If it was actually a thing, I’m sure I would remember at least bits of it.

    Of course, a teacher who shows up to explain to you how you’ll be able to ditch work at age 30 is probably not the kind of message that schools would be able to convey…

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      desk_jockey July 13, 2016, 5:53 pm

      I can remember basic personal finance being taught in school, particularly class exercises in the 6th grade where for a few weeks we worked with imaginary budgets simulating starting our lives as adults. My two clearest memories were (1) choosing to spend half of my income on a car and associated expenses (what self-respecting 6th grade boy doesn’t plan to drive a Ferrari when he’s out on his own), and (2) figuring out how to counterfeit the colored construction paper rectangles that served as money in the lessons.

      I’m pleased to say that I gained a little more wisdom by the time I got out on my own and never attempted to replicate the experience.

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        The Long Haul Investor July 13, 2016, 8:25 pm

        I’ve talked about this with people and it seems the majority never had personal finance training. Even some accountants and finance types don’t fully get it. Yes sad. It always seemed to me school taught more about things I really didn’t need on a daily basis.

        I think if this was taught at some point in high school it might stick a bit more. It should definitely be a requirement for a 1 credit hour seminar while in college. In my opinion it should be required at the high school and college level.

        To many people graduate with the slightest idea on how to run their household finances. I think the knowledge would stick more than people realize. I’m sometimes amazed at what I remember from high school or college. Sometimes just a quick refresher is more than enough to get me back on 100%.

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          Ali July 14, 2016, 11:02 pm

          I had a personal finance class of sorts in eight grade. I remember one lesson where our teacher was preaching about how evil credit cards were, then our next assignment was to purchase a car with a certain amount of money….we had to find out payment options, etc. I didn’t understand how, in the EIGHTH grade, I understood car payments were just as “evil” as credit cards, but my teacher didn’t. Then she got pissed at me for wanting to buy the cheapest car I could find and invest the rest. I think my dad did a better job at teaching me personal finance than the class, so I’m not sure classes are the answer here.

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          Jim Wang July 15, 2016, 5:00 am

          I’ve never had it. School teaches you how to go to more school and then to college, where you can learn how to be like everyone else and work in a factory. (whatever that factory may be, not necessarily a manufacturing center)

          I don’t think it would stick if taught in school. How many other things were taught in school and didn’t stick? :)

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          The Long Haul Investor July 15, 2016, 11:53 am

          Ali I’m sorry your teacher felt that way. I bet their financial situation was in bad shape. Teaching in school obviously assumes a few things. It would be taught correctly and without bias are a couple. Obviously easier said than done. Additionally the timing of when it’s taught is imperative. Either your last year of high school, and at least 1 credit hour in college which is already filled with a lot of other useless items.

          Jim not all school is useless. There are good and poor aspects as with everything in life. School is what you decide to make of it. I never liked it myself but I used it to my advantage when I could. That means taking the opportunity to learn what I wanted when it was offered.

          Note I never said it was the only solution. Nor that it would be guaranteed to “stick”. Even if it makes a difference for 25% of people that’s a baby step in the right direction.

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          Jim Wang July 17, 2016, 5:38 am

          Long Haul – I never said it was useless :)

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          Jamie July 22, 2016, 8:34 am

          I remember having simulations with finances in school when I was a kid. It never really stuck because I did not see or care about the value of those simulated experiences at the time.

          I have never been bad with money, but when things really stuck in my head starting to matter was when I was completely on my own with basically no help forced to sink or swim. It forced me to find ways to survive that most people think are extreme.

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          Monk July 30, 2016, 12:08 pm

          If Colleges required students to take a course in personal finance, they may have fewer defaults on student loans.

          But then again, if college students understood personal finance, they wouldn’t be willing to pay stupidly high tuition while getting a major in Sociology or Art History. It may be in Universities’ best interest to keep students ignorant of personal finance.

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      mp July 14, 2016, 4:20 am

      This is just the kind of teacher that schools should have, it would be awesome and inspirational stuff. In fact, early retirees, why not do a part time teaching gig and spread your wisdom and knowledge? the world needs you! (and as most of you are probably pretty handy at tech, doubly so, c’mon!)

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        lurker July 16, 2016, 10:47 am

        brilliant idea….teach America! the right stuff

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      Jared July 14, 2016, 3:55 pm

      I had a great teacher in high school who did his best to teach students about the difference between wants and necessities, tracking (and minimizing) spending, and investing in stock mutual funds. I earned a $5,000 scholarship based on in-class achievement and leadership activity. The scholarship money was invested in a mutual fund which could either be used for college expenses upon graduation from college or retirement. This teacher taught me a lot, maybe this was unusual, but I’m very thankful for this experience ten years later. I agree that the world needs more teachers like this. Although, I have never appreciated this experience more in my life than I do now after living independently from my parents for ten years and learning responsibility from my own mistakes and achievements. I think this is how most people who come to care about personal finance learn how to handle money responsibly, through experience. Those that care most take time to read and learn on their own from other teachers like MMM.

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    Dan July 13, 2016, 10:48 pm

    I wonder about this sometimes. I was taught about compound interest in high school, maybe even late middle school, and understood it immediately on a surface level. But without the experience of actually having a job and trying to amass wealth, I didn’t get how powerful it was until I found MMM in the first year after graduating college.

    It might be, though, that better messaging could help it stick for more people. The lesson from compound interest always seemed to be, “Start saving young, kids!” Much less sexy than “You could stop working after 10 years!” even if they are really the same thing.

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      Jim Wang July 15, 2016, 5:03 am

      I think different people are motivated by different things. I was always a long term consequences type of guy, which is why MMM resonates with me, and an engineer so you show me compound interest and I’m like “wow, on board with that!”

      But most don’t biologically develop that long term thinking until they are well into their 20s sometimes and by then you can rack up a ton of debt…

      I say mix up the messaging and whatever sticks with an individual is the best approach, that’s why the internet is so great, so many perspectives.

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        Nuke July 21, 2016, 5:15 pm

        Very good point, Jim. We appreciate your posts.

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      Pengepugeren July 16, 2016, 3:45 pm

      This stuff is often taught as just math – “If you borrow $X at Y% annual interest and pay $Z per month, when will you have paid off the loan and how much you have paid in interests?”. You do the math problem and move on without having actually learned anything about money.

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        Aaron July 20, 2016, 10:00 am

        I wonder if it would resonate better with some if it was also taught as social justice.

        You do something bad that gives you X points of bad karma, so you are thrown in jail. You cannot leave jail until you have 0 bad karma. 1 good karma cancels out 1 bad karma. You accumulate more karma at Y% annually. If you do enough good deeds to generate Z points of good karma perm month, how long until you are out of jail? How much good karma would you have had to generate to end up with 0 karma?

        Alternatively, you can start out with 0 karma, and do good deeds to create a stockpile of goodness. If you ever do something bad to generate bad karma, you can cancel it out with good karma you’ve saved up and avoid going to jail.

        So see the lesson here? Jail = debt. Stockpile of goodness = savings. Stockpile of goodness helps you avoid jail just like savings help you avoid debt.

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          Trevis July 29, 2016, 12:13 pm

          I like the social justice aspect, but I would probably frame it differently. It seems like my teenager is hyped up about how the corporations are evil and overpowered. So, I told her to take the power away from them by not buying their stuff (or buying as little as possible). I also let her know that she could work her way out of them having control over her by gaining financial independence. Suddenly, she’s asking about budgeting and how she can save more of her money! She is even asking me why not everyone does this. I told her that is a great question for her mom (who spends most of the money).

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          Linda October 16, 2016, 1:00 pm

          That’s it Travis… Everyone has their pain point and “why”. What I have not seen in the comments yet is parents like you who are spending the time with their children and finding ways to relate these values to them. Values like finances and lifestyles are mostly caught, not taught. Until the kids have their own lightbulb moment they may hear what you say but won’t care much about it until they can see how it relates to themselves. That’s how we reach our kids.

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    Jackie July 14, 2016, 3:35 am

    I’m not so sure. I remember the #1 complaint of kids who hated math and it was “I’m never going to use this.” Maybe if they were given the option of a personal finance class there would be a lot more interest since there’s a real world application. I took a class in college called “Math for the Modern World” where we learned about compound interest and mortgages along with other basic math and I just remember thinking “THIS is what I needed to be taught in high school!”

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      Mike July 14, 2016, 2:39 pm

      It’s a larger challenge than just presenting the material, because teenagers are inherently bad at see the long term picture. Their decisions are short sighted and they have so little life experience to relate new knowledge to. It’s hard to learn about the long term effects of credit on a household budget when you have no expenses and have never paid a bill. This is a topic that parents are MORE responsible for than schools. It would be great if schools had better programs, but these are life lessons that need to be taught continuously from an early age.

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        Dave C July 15, 2016, 9:50 am

        Well said Mike, Jackie.

        Although we can’t change certain inherent things about young humans, we can at least teach them useful things from a young age – giving them at least the ability to use them. Teaching a “History of Economics” course in high school would give students an understanding of what money is and how it is used.

        I often wish I was taught more practical things in high school. I hear some schools are teaching bike mechanics now – strip a whole bike, figure out how it works, and put it back together. Now that is my kind of education!

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      The MAD Consultant July 15, 2016, 7:37 pm

      I remember saying that to my Math teacher once. In response he made me write a paper that he even read aloud to the class. I cringe now when I use the formulas I was taught that year to be so shortsighted as a teenager. Yes teenagers think differently, but that does not mean all is lost on them forever. That lesson he taught me has stuck forever.

      I too wish a lot of different things were taught in school. In fact when I help people with their finances I’m sometimes amazed at what simple concepts(and info) seem far-fetched to them. I just recently sat with someone as they talked to their banker about a mortgage refi simply because they wanted someone else there who understood what was being talked about. They were also concerned about being taken advantage of, and not making the right decision with all the options presented. All simply because they didn’t feel confident enough in their ability to understand financial topics.

      Heck I’d be happy if they all knew enough to put me out of a job because it means the world is smarter and better off.
      When I talk to kids in high school I tell them – “There is more knowledge out there than what you are given inside these walls. Its up to you to find it”
      When I talk to young people just coming out of college this is what I tell them – “Now your real education starts”

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        Zinnia July 22, 2016, 11:50 am

        Re: the mortgage refi meeting you helped with — Yeah, but what a smart person to ask you to sit in with them! In my experience it’s a pretty big thing to admit you don’t trust yourself to make the best decision and seek a second opinion from someone you respect. When my late-teen, early-20s sons ask for help from more-knowledgeable people I know they are taking a step forward in maturity. Actually, I see a parallel there to rejecting consumerism — you’re golden when you stop caring about how you look to others and instead focus on the results or life you want. Maybe your friend will get inspired to learn more about the things you’ve obviously got a handle on.

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          The MAD Consultant July 26, 2016, 1:57 pm

          Zinnia,

          Yes it is flattering, but just part of what I do. I hope they do find the time to learn more. There is a saying that I believe goes like this. “When you stop learning it is time to die”. I firmly believe in that statement.

          As for younger people I think it’s a valuable piece of experience to seek out advice from other well informed people. Those that seek a guide I have observed like being better prepared and informed. A valuable trait. I follow that path to this day as I always seek people who know more than me to learn from. It’s great for you to see how your children take steps in the right direction themselves. They will be well rewarded, and so will you with great memories..

          When MMM was recommended to me by a friend a couple years ago I was intrigued. Especially since they mentioned how we seemed to be similar types of people. At that point I was beginning to bike again, and MMM put the transition on turbocharge. It opened up my eyes again to the benefits and possibilities. Instead of using the bike for only certain things I realized I could do it for everything. Just another example of how learning(and sometimes re-learning) is a never ending process.

          I guess while on the subject(of consumerism and learning) we should not forget to learn from our ancestors. A lot of valuable information in history. When I took to time to learn more about Native American’s I came across some interesting knowledge. For one they actively eschewed consumerist style ways of life, and preferred to not spend their time collecting belongings. Coincidentally this allowed them to pursue spending more time on their personal care, appearance, etcetera, and not just their general survival. All this continued even after coming in contact with European ways.They were some of the first anti-consumerists based upon the lifestyle they chose to live. The plains tribes also had a saying – “The richest person in the tribe was the one with the least.” Due to the fact it was customary and noble to give away your excess to those less fortunate. It’s my assumption MMM is a Native admirer also.

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    Alexandra July 19, 2016, 1:20 pm

    I am a high school teacher at a private school with a lot of license to create my own curricula and courses. I’ve put in plans to teach a semester-long personal finance class every year for the last five years. It is always turned down.

    After five years, I understand why. This stuff is HIGHLY emotionally-charged. Being a Mustachian would, for most of the students at my school, necessitate them not going to the school where I teach. Most of their families lead extremely anti-Mustachian lives, as evidenced by the expensive cars pulling up at the school every day and extensive extra curricular activities the students participate in.

    I taught at a public school for eight years before my current job. I think a financial planning class in either setting would be as controversial as sex ed, maybe more so. You would have to be extremely careful about teaching in an unbiased way and just laying out facts about here’s how to budget, here’s what compound interest is, here’s how debt works…it would have to be very “just the facts”.

    I see commenters on financial blogs complain all the time about the lack of financial education in schools, but the truth is it is a very touchy subject–a huge potential can of worms. I can see why schools don’t want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

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      Ellie July 20, 2016, 12:17 pm

      How terribly sad. It’s as if the System is threatened by this knowledge and therefore it must not be taught. ;)

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        David Wendelken July 24, 2016, 9:27 am

        Actually, the system feels threatened by the parents who will be threatened by this knowledge…

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        Dianne July 28, 2016, 2:14 am

        I think it really is threatened by this kind of knowledge. The world is built on buy, spend, work run around like an idiot and repeat so when a few of us try to do things differently the system tries to put us back in our place. I love my life but still I find myself saying I’ve done nothing much when asked about weekend activities. I’ve actually done loads in and around my home, walking, sewing, reading, learning, working out etc. However as my colleagues tend to have stories of trips to other cities, nightclubs and events etc I feel I have to reply as such. Don’t know why, or maybe it’s because they don’t get it. I also cut my working week to 3 and a half days last year and I love it. My house is paid and I feel very badass , I bet they don’t get that either.

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      Steph August 7, 2018, 6:37 pm

      I know your comment was from a couple of years ago, but thought I’d chime in anyway. I’m a high school teacher at a public school on the south side of Chicago and I actually taught Consumer Ed for a couple of years and am planning to incorporate it into my classes informally this year. Fortunately there was no controversy over it when it was an actual course, and some of the concepts were pretty Mustachian, such as building a budget and savings, learning how to calculate compound interest, and engaging in comparison shopping. We also talked about credit cards and investing. Also, because my students are poor and a lot of their parents don’t have bank accounts we also discussed the dangers of payday loan companies. I’m going to share some Mustachian ideals with them, although I’ve always talked about issues surrounding consumerism with my students in the context of US History.

      As for the topic at hand, I’ve been moving in the Mustachian direction ever since I discovered this blog and YNAB a year ago, although I was already doing a few of the things he suggests. I’ve made a lot of progress over the year, and am looking forward to seeing how much more progress I can make this coming year!

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    Roxanne Miller September 12, 2016, 11:17 am

    I Love this article!! I am a perfect example of wasting my life & finances..Unfortunately I was a party girl for a while ..then had to learn all the basics of checking accounts..savings..etc…now I am at a time in my life where I have absolutely no money saved and trying to learn how to either flip a property or invest my very very small inheritance into something that could make a return?? Believe me I wish I could have a do-over..but I will say that this was well worth my time & peaked my interest.. Thank You

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  BuildMyFI July 13, 2016, 5:12 pm

  This lesson could be life saving to some but it could mean nothing to others. Even this was taught in school, I doubt many would appreciate it before their life take a downturn then they realize “oh, now I understand”.

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    aleksey July 13, 2016, 6:12 pm

    well isn’t that how all education works? You get stuff that might be useful forcefully crammed into your head when you’re young and stupid, and then some of it sticks and possibly benefits you down the road.

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    Rich v July 14, 2016, 8:40 am

    Life gives the test first, then the lesson

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      Dr Bill July 14, 2016, 12:42 pm

      Nice!

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      Vince Granacher July 14, 2016, 2:15 pm

      A good way of saying that we learn from our mistakes, if we are paying attention.

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    Mikey July 22, 2016, 7:30 pm

    True (@BuildMyFI). But at least when their life does start to take a downturn, they know where they went wrong and are not left clueless. That would be the first step to fixing it.

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  Kyle July 14, 2016, 6:55 am

  You re exactly right. I’ve had this very conversation with my wife and kids. They do offer, and I remember taking finance classes. But it was about investing (stocks, bonds, etc.). It wasn’t about personal financial independence. Not even a single day devoted to personal finance. This is why I believe teaching your kids is so important.

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    Fiscally Free July 18, 2016, 3:19 pm

    I completely agree. I can’t believe how little most people know about even the the most basic personal finance principles.
    These things should be mandatory basic education, but they are mostly relegated to specialized financial magazines or blogs like this one.

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  eyepatch July 14, 2016, 7:29 pm

  I don’t think that school is an institution of a design that is capable of teaching this stuff. I think that living life within your means and enjoying life with less means has less to do with what you know and more to do with what you practice.

  Maybe this is because I don’t budget, but it never seemed that complicated to me. You track what you spend, and you allot what you think you should spend.

  Note: By not budgeting I mean that I have designed my daily expenses to be such that I am confident that they are minimized, and that I track what I spend money on. Endless opportunity cost analysis means that I mostly make purchases that I feel good about, and that they’re not that spendy. (A luxurious can of pre-prepared canned soup in lieu of healthier, home-cooked options.)

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  Scooter July 15, 2016, 3:09 pm

  I teach grades 6-8 in a town of around 40,000 people. I am a special education teacher in the emotional disturbance classroom. Last year I had 15 students during what we call a resource room hour, meaning they are in regular classes all day long except for the class period they come to me. In the resource room we work on IEP goals and social/living skills. My kids have deficits in the area of emotions/behavior. I have students with autism, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, neglected child syndrome, and many of my kids were born addicted to drugs and are in foster care or the juvenile justice system. I am so lucky to be able to develop my own programming in a public school where administration supports out of the box thinking. As a SpEd teacher I don’t have to follow a programming designated by the state. The students parents/guardians, classroom teacher, administration and myself develop the programming these kids need on an individual basis. I teach Mustachianism to all my kids. I don’t mention the blog or use the blog in class, but I use the information I’ve learned here and make up my own case study examples to help show them another way of life besides consumerism. Most of my students come from a poverty background. They are very concerned with blending in with the other kids and having material possessions. I just hope I am planting a seed in their hearts that will grow as they get older and gain life experience.

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    Beth July 17, 2016, 7:05 pm

    Wow, Scooter! I love hearing that the best is being given to those who seem to have the least. Keep sowing those seeds!

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    David July 17, 2016, 9:22 pm

    Hey Scooter! Just wanted to thank you for this comment. Many of the previous ones are about how school doesn’t teach this kind of lessons to students. Yours is the exact opposite, real positive and optimistic, even in the face of difficult situations. So I just want you to know that I appreciate it. Keep up the good work!

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    Melissa Pierson July 22, 2016, 9:49 am

    Awesome, Scooter! I wish my daughter had had a teacher like you. Her IEP’s were ignored, she was shamed and berated and left behind, until finally I pulled her out and home schooled her. What a difference a teacher like you would have made.

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      Scooter July 23, 2016, 2:13 pm

      Thank you for the comments of support! Melissa- I came to SpEd teaching after my daughter struggled to get her 504 plan followed, I became a “problem parent” and also ended up homeschooling. Three years ago I went back to school and recently graduated at the age of 40 to became the teacher I wish she would have had. I fight for my students every day, which means letting them know the reality of life. I get some flack from staff for teaching finances to the at risk kids who can’t read anywhere near grade level or do basic math. I feel an understanding of consumerism, living below your means, and the propaganda machine known as advertising is just as important as the core subjects. I’m not at work to make friends, I’m there to advocate for my students. It’s the hardest job I’ve ever done but I look forward to going to work every day.

      Just so I don’t hijack this thread into an education rant, I am a teacher and my husband is a systems engineer. Combined we make over $100,000 per year and as of 9 months ago we had less than $200 in savings. Seriously. I began reading this blog sporadically after an internet search while trying to develop a life skills curriculum for my students and half-assed-ly adopted some (very few) of the ideas. My husband doesn’t read the blog at all but he’s not much of a spender. He does still eat out occasionally and goes overboard while grocery shopping. He recently bought $30 worth of cherries. (I know!!) We don’t have a budget, we love our air conditioner, we live 20 miles away from the town we work in, and we still managed to save $7000 in 9 months. Embarrassing and pathetic compared to what a lot of you are doing, but to be honest, I don’t feel I changed my lifestyle AT ALL. It was completely painless. I stopped eating out and shopping for fun and we started carpooling. That’s pretty much it! I may never get as serious as MMM but even a tiny change will get you results.

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PoF July 13, 2016, 2:50 pm

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  Juan July 13, 2016, 7:27 pm

  Less than $100K a year!? Wow
  I guess I can see that… I have been exchanging a few emails with a wealthy blogger (made wealthy by his day job not his blog) and it is interesting to see how easy it is to inflate your expenses to ridiculous amounts when you have a big income. It really takes some serious badassity and a no non-sense way of thinking to keep expenses from inflating when your income is really high.
  This is one of the many reasons I admire MMM. I hope I can keep myself from falling in the trap as my income continues to grow. This will be a good post to come back to in moments of weakness :)

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    PoF July 13, 2016, 9:13 pm

    Gotta start somewhere. I do link to this site a fair amount, and list it as one of 2 main inspirations, but for many docs, a budget of $2,000 a month is a non-starter. So I present budgets that physicians might consider reasonable. MMM Lite. More spending allowance, fewer facepunches.

    While most physicians are not familiar with the term “financial independence,” EVERY SINGLE ONE of us is familiar with the phrase “delayed gratifiacation.” We’re indoctrinated to plan on gratifying ourselves as soon as the first big paychecks come in, or even shortly beforehand. I’m trying to save us from ourselves one post at a time.

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      Juan July 14, 2016, 4:43 am

      Makes sense, you know your audience better than anyone. I guess if your monthly expenses are around $15,000 per month, getting close to $2,000 may seem ludicrous :)

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    LuckyOz July 15, 2016, 10:48 am

    It is not about what you spend, it is about what you save. Someone earning hundreds of thousands a year, does not need to lower expenses to $2k a month. MMM lifestyle is about living well below your means, not necessarily battling on who can be most frugal.

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      PoF July 15, 2016, 2:13 pm

      Indeed. It’s not at all difficult to save half your net income when your net income is $200,000 or more. But it’s incredibly common for physicians to save only a small fraction. Chasing happiness with money and stuff when Not spending would be more likely to get them closer to their goals.

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      Juan July 15, 2016, 3:09 pm

      Well said, I agree with the main premise of your argument. It’s not about competing on frugality and there is naturally some wiggle room if you are a high earner. I’d like to point out however, that at some point (I am no one to say where exactly) spending more and more on yourself becomes ridiculous. I think this is why very high earners who “see the light” often turn to philanthropy.

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        LuckyOz July 15, 2016, 3:21 pm

        I work in finance with many in the $150k-$250k range who live paycheck to paycheck. One colleague worked 5 years on a project which paid him roughly $1 million over the 5 years. Once the project was completed, 2 months later he as bankrupt. He had been spending his money on cars and bad real estate.

        Another colleague has worked over 20 years at that earnings level, and has virtually nothing to show for it. He continues to buy magic beans (stupid investment schemes).

        Financial illiteracy is as common for high income earners as it is for average income earners.

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          PoF July 15, 2016, 5:41 pm

          Perhaps more common. Physicians are frequent targets for bad investment schemes, and tend to be more likely to invest. Too busy or overconfident to bother with due diligence.

Lynne July 13, 2016, 2:54 pm

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  Benjamin J July 13, 2016, 3:07 pm

  Lynne – MMM has saved money and made investments over the last 20 years that have enabled him now to do whatever he wants with his time, regardless of any bills or property taxes that might come his way. How is this not retirement?

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  Andrew July 13, 2016, 3:10 pm

  Lol

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  Brandon July 13, 2016, 3:12 pm

  The system wouldn’t work without hamsters spinning the wheel. I am greatful that there will always be people with your mindset. The way you choose to spend your time keeps my investments headed in the right direction so that I can spend my time however I choose.

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    grum July 14, 2016, 4:09 pm

    This. Every morning as I return from walking with my daughter to the local school, and look out the window at the crowd in the distance driving to work, while I settle in to make a coffee and do … whatever I please … I silently thank them for making the system go round so I can live the life of my dreams.

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    lurker July 16, 2016, 10:52 am

    Hurray for the hamsters!!!!!! I am chewing on one little corner of my cage everyday and planning for the big break!!!!!! LOL

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    DuckReconMajor September 16, 2018, 4:06 pm

    I couldn’t disagree more. We’re at the height of a mental health crisis, and while I don’t think the MMM lifestyle would 100% eradicate all of it, the “work ’til you die so you don’t have to go outside” mentality sure as hell isn’t going to help!

    I don’t want anyone to suffer on account of me having a good life. The whole point of this and other blogs is that we transition to a good life for ALL people.

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  RMD July 13, 2016, 3:14 pm

  And you’re here because…?

  Reply
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  Squeakywheel July 13, 2016, 3:18 pm

  You may get a lot of flak for your point of view, but I think each person should decide this type of thing for themselves. Everyone has different priorities. My nephew, for instance, may agree with you–he loves solving coding problems more than life itself, it seems, and absolutely cannot stand cooking or dealing with any of the other minutia of life. And I think that is ok. If we all were the same, the world would not work as well! Good for you for keeping an open mind, reading the blog, and deciding for yourself. Just because your choice is different than mine, doesn’t make it a necessarily bad one.

  Reply
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  Dan July 13, 2016, 3:23 pm

  I think you are somewhat missing the point (as many complainypants who visit this blog do, no offense intended). Your body and mind function best when they are moving, eating nutritious food, and emotional (both happy and sad) in small intermittent doses. Much of modern life’s excesses do precisely the opposite: less movement while you let gasoline, electricity, or other people do work for you, less nutritious food as you consume sugar and end up fat, and excessive emotions in the form of constant “entertainment”. What MMM describes is not a “job”, he isn’t trading his time for money which he then trades for entertainment, he is spending his time optimizing his body and mind.

  Reply
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  Mr Real Estate July 13, 2016, 3:33 pm

  I remember a post a while back about people who have this similar view point, and it’s one that I halfway share.

  People who enjoy their job and therefore see no reason to spend most of their paycheck since they don’t mind working forever.

  The counterpoint is that there may be a day you wake up and realize you no longer enjoy this job or leaving your family everyday for it. At this time you’ve already locked yourself into this cycle. So why not learn to be happy with a little less every week and set yourself up with some nice FU money should your job ever turn into a prison sentence.

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    mp July 14, 2016, 4:27 am

    …and also, ironically, not having to work for money can make work a lot more enjoyable (a SWAMI I believe is the term used here).

    Reply
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    Mike July 14, 2016, 7:23 am

    I see your screen name is Mr. Real Estate. Are you retired off rental income by any chance? If so, how is that going for you? I am getting closer to that point myself, and would like to hear about someone that has done it. Instead of clogging up this blog, if you don’t mind sharing your story/financial situation, please email me at RealtorMikeS@gmail.com

    Reply
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  KingJoey July 13, 2016, 3:36 pm

  Lynne, you should examine your thoughts a little deeper. Isn’t everyone doing different “work”, retired or not retired? Those of us that are retired, or better put “Financially Independent”, do have different work schedules than those that are not FI. Our “work” schedules are “Do whatever the hell I want when I want”. I don’t hang out my laundry, I don’t even bike anymore, but I do follow the principles of spending WAY less money than I make. It allowed me to retire at 58 and my only regret is that I should of and could have retired earlier.

  I know several people that would rather die at their desks than retire, and unfortunately, some have. I find this extremely sad! What I have found out is that they are scared! Scared to leave a lifestyle they have grown accustomed to, scared of not making enough money, scared of not seeing their work friends, and sadly enough, scared of boredom.

  Isn’t the power of freedom, freedom to do what and when you want, worth a little less extravagant lifestyle now to attain FI sooner rather than later? I say a resounding YES!

  If you want to keep working until the day you die, I can guaranty you’ll succeed. But that’s an easy and sad goal to attain. I hope you find other pleasures that don’t require you to stay on the treadmill of “working for the man” day in and day out. It’s much better on this side of the fence. I wish you well.

  Reply
  • 

    Mika M July 15, 2016, 10:45 am

    I probably qualify as half-Mustachian at best. The biggest change for me was reigning in the mindless buying off “stuff”. My personal checklist for better finances include my half-ass version which covers the Big 3 (housing, transportation, food) and last but not least the buying of stuff:

    -A short commute from a small home (well, not huge at least)
    -A fuel efficient car, as small a size as you can stand
    -Brown bag both breakfast and lunch to the office, make your own coffee if you drink it, and cook your own dinners at least 90% of the time (I get lazy on this too; always keeping a supply of frozen pizzas handy)
    -Reduce (your consumption and spending on Things), Reuse & Recycle (repurpose what you already have, borrow, swap, Craigslist, Freecycle, etc.)

    Just rolling with that lazyman’s route has made a gigantic world of difference for me. I might not be financially independent tomorrow but I’m definitely confident I won’t be strapped to a desk at 72 wondering if I’ll have enough to retire in a couple more years. Unfortunately most people I know won’t even go THAT far.

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    • 

      Lynne July 21, 2016, 8:05 am

      Mika, that’s exactly what I am looking for – some sort of “eat this, not that” mentality towards doing better, without the extreme “you have to move, bike to work, hang out your laundry, cook all your meals” mentality. They call can call me a “complainypants” or whatever – but the reality is that, in my world, IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. It just wouldn’t – one thing that MMM has is a 100% supportive spouse, I do not. I currently am the one that does all the shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. so I really couldn’t sign up for more.
      PS – I did not get any notifications that there were new posts on this thread, so that’s why I haven’t responded sooner.

      Reply
      • 

        William July 23, 2016, 12:34 pm

        I think this is an important thing to think about–some of the changes that MMM advocates for are very difficult to make. That’s fine. There’s no need to discount all the changes simply because some of them don’t match your lifestyle. Start instead with changes that you can make in your life. You say that you don’t have time to think about biking and cooking because you do the shopping/cleaning, so can you focus on saving time there? Could you reduce how much cleaning you do by downsizing your home? This would simultaneously increasing your savings rate, which will eventually allow you to stop working earlier, and free up time in the rest of your life. What about focusing on making fewer shopping trips and making those fewer trips more efficient? My point is that this isn’t a philosophy about always doing more, more effort, more stress, etc–you can find ways to save time first and then use that extra time to “move/bike/cook”, or whatever hobbies you have that aren’t sitting in a cubicle :).

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        JULIE SUNDAY July 25, 2016, 12:30 pm

        I think you raise an interesting point here that I have often wondered about in the MMM space. You say you are one half of a couple and you do all the shopping, cooking and cleaning–I wonder how many of the Misters here are able to ‘outsource’ much of this unpleasant labor to the original under/unpaid source–their wives. I’d love to be proven wrong with a MMM poll about the gender breakdown of readers/partners and who does what at home but my guess is that there is a healthy dose of “it’s so easy to DIY” when the “Y” is actually your wife.

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        • 

          Simon Kenton July 25, 2016, 4:27 pm

          For the last 12 years I did the cooking and shopping, having retired early while my wife continued to work. As she retires she will do some more cooking, and perforce some shopping.

          The maids did the cleaning. This provides a useful mechanism for assuring that proxy fights asymptotically approach zero. Neither of us like to clean, each of us is persuaded that our other activities are more useful and lucrative than cleaning, and both of us got enough in previous marriages of fights that were “about” money or “about” cleaning, but were really a stand-in for more fundamental incompatibilities.

        • 

          Margaret November 4, 2021, 7:15 pm

          After years of being addicted to this blog and dedicated reading of comments, this observation is still my favourite :)

• 

  Keith Schroeder July 13, 2016, 3:38 pm

  MMM never asked you to live his lifestyle. By applying his financial advice in your life you can live any way you want. Any way you want!

  I advise you go back and re-read this blog from post 1 and really concentrate on what it taught. You missed the whole point .

  Reply
• 

  Mr. Money Mustache July 13, 2016, 3:48 pm

  “Wow… Just.. Wow”
  – Little MM after I read Lynne’s comment aloud to him.

  You would rather die at your desk with a mountain of debt, if it meant you get to continue to stay inside and use your electric clothes dryer.

  It’s not really worth addressing each of Lynne’s points here (the 450 posts I’ve written over the past five years do a better job), but the biggest misunderstanding is in the concept of win/win.

  I don’t do any of this stuff to save money – I do it because it’s a happier and healthier way to live. Not just for me, but for YOU, too. Not just some of us, ALL of us.

  Every single human on Earth will live better by not cringing away from the idea of effort, as the attitude expressed in this comment implicitly does.

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    Ben July 13, 2016, 5:03 pm

    That’s a hard concept for a lot of people. Its more than just being frugal, its being a conscientious citizen of the planet.

    Reply
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      Mrs. CTC July 15, 2016, 4:29 am

      Exactly. It starts out as the road to retirement, until you realise that the road itself is the way you should live your life anyway. With a conscience.

      Reply
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    cksurfdude July 14, 2016, 8:02 am

    MMM – agree with everything _except_ denying yourself that cold, tasty micro-brew ;-)

    Just work out a little bit more (aerobics, biking, etc.) to burn a few more calories …. I have to do that occasionally not to save money (am firmly in the FI camp) but ‘cuz I’m twice your age and the old metabolism has slowed waaaay down (despite working and being active every single day).

    Anyway, thanks again for all the real-world, commonsense wisdom :)

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      Mr. Money Mustache July 14, 2016, 8:43 am

      Don’t get me wrong, Surf Dude – I do drink plenty of beer. But still only about 10% of the beer I WOULD drink if I didn’t care about getting fat or diabetic or any of the other problems that come with overconsuming unhealthy stuff.

      That was the point of the self-denial in that example: personal health. NOT saving the $1.33 that it costs me to restock a can of Dale’s Pale Ale as Lynne’s comment implied.

      Reply
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    Matt July 25, 2016, 8:09 pm

    While with most things you recommend this is true, it’s not always the case. If I don’t enjoy doing something like say washing dishes or hanging up laundry, I want to automate it if possible. When I reach FI, I want to be as free from drudgery as possible. I want to be able to focus my effort on fun engineering and entrepreneurial projects along with my regular hobbies. If I have to do everything manually and abandon or short shrift my hobbies to retire early, I’m better off staying at my job.

    Making your own meals, not buying stupid stuff, getting a barbell set in lieu of a gym membership, not using AC, buying a cheap, reliable, efficient car, getting a small place with a short commute all make sense without even considering money. But there are some luxuries and conveniences I’ll gladly spend an extra year at the office to hold on to.

    Reply
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      Javahead July 25, 2016, 8:55 pm

      I can’t really argue with that.

      If there’s something that I genuinely don’t like doing, I try to arrange my life so that I don’t need to.

      But I’ve noticed that when I have more free time some things change from “drudgery” to “kind of interesting and fun”. And others don’t, but often “drudgery” is really just “I have too little free time to do this well” rather than “I hate doing this”. The trick is to figure out which are which.

      Reply
• 

  A mom July 13, 2016, 4:21 pm

  Just have to say that I love the process of hanging my laundry on the line to dry. I can’t explain it, but I really look forward to it. It raises my spirits almost every time.

  Reply
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    Michael Groves July 13, 2016, 4:57 pm

    I couldn’t agree more. For me it always harkens back to “my ancestors dried their clothes like this, and their ancestors did, and their ancestors did etc” kind of like one small bond we still have despite of our ridiculous modern lifestyles

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    Clint July 13, 2016, 5:17 pm

    Me too. Outside. Fresh air. Birds at the feeder. And the big payoff: the best smelling sheets that can’t be duplicated by a dryer!

    Reply
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      Frugal Lizard July 14, 2016, 4:43 am

      Me three! I love watching how the wind moves the clothes/linens around. It is mesmerizing. Sometimes I make patterns with how I arrange it on the line (mostly to facilitate drying) but sometimes it has more of an aesthetic quality to it. One of my neighbors is on to me – making a comment about the temporal beauty of “installation”

      And the best nights sleep is always the first night in line dried linens.

      Reply
      • 

        Spencer July 14, 2016, 12:54 pm

        Fascinating points. I sometimes wonder if humans evolved to enjoy tasks that selected for the survival. Maybe hanging laundry was an activity that increased chances for survival bc of cleanliness, etc. I know a lot of people that absolutely love to fish and hunt, some to the point of obsession. It seems irrational, but perhaps the trait to enjoy those things gave our ancestors a selective advantage.

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        lee July 14, 2016, 2:09 pm

        I live in the UK and up north where I live , line drying is the norm despite the atrociously wet weather. Comments at work can often be heard about whether it will stay dry until we get home to get the washing in .
        When the kids were very small babies I would often lie them on the grass (on a blanket) and pin the washing out with different colours ( UK spelling !)and sizes alternating. Then let them watch the washing blow in the wind. Kept them amused for ages.

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          wb July 14, 2016, 9:36 pm

          Thank you for that beautiful image, lee.

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          Missy July 15, 2016, 6:30 pm

          I agree. What a healthy way to have the kids spend their time! As an aside, when I hang my laundry out, I’m always amazed at how quickly it dries. Some items within 15-20 mins and the heavy stuff like towels are usually a half our or just a bit over on a summer day with sun or a light breeze! Easy!

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        ScottB. September 28, 2016, 9:54 pm

        Also think of most of the world where this is the preferred method regardless of wealth. I also put all my clothes on hangers, and hang them on a balcony. Every time I step out to admire the good view (16th floor) or my garden, I grab a few clothing items and take them 20 feet to my closet.

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    lurker July 16, 2016, 10:56 am

    my mom loved it too and the way the stuff smelled after it dried in the great outdoors….taught me to love doing laundry too….I miss her

    Reply
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    roadmanjim July 18, 2016, 11:50 am

    I remember a neighbor where I grew up that did not have a clothes dryer. In the winter, someone would shovel a path out to the clothes line for the laundry. Shirts would go up wet, freeze in to things that looked like they were made out of wood but would still dry! Yes, ladies and gentlemen, despite clothes freezing stiff; they will still dry. Granted, it took a little longer than a warm summer day, but so what? It was only later that I learned about the cool process known a sublimation.

    Reply
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  Jmac July 13, 2016, 4:49 pm

  I don’t want to believe Lynne’s post is a serious one. Any logical person who’s read and digested the fantastic information on this blog cannot possibly take such exception with the way MMM lives. I discovered this blog 3 months ago, was blown away at how clear the answers were, and have completely reversed the (insane) financial course I was locked into. Keep kicking ass, MMM.

  Reply
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  Norm July 13, 2016, 5:53 pm

  I think Lynne is a plant. Or at least a straw man. Excuse me. Straw woman.

  I mean, if you really love your job, good on you. You should keep doing it. But dying at your desk with a mountain of debt isn’t really a goal that anyone should have. And if MMM’s lifestyle of cooking, home repair and biking sounds like “a lot of hard work,” I bet you’d think differently if you had an extra 8 or 9 or 10 hours free every day.

  Reply
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    TexasAnnie July 13, 2016, 9:33 pm

    I wonder – if Lynne thinks that dying with a mountain of debt is winning – because she gets things she wants and won’t have to pay all of it back?

    Doesn’t make any sense to me, but it just crossed my mind.

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      Javahead July 14, 2016, 12:53 pm

      I have some family members that have exactly that attitude.

      Way past normal retirement age, getting reasonable Social Security and a pension – but still buried under debt. Rather than giving up expensive vacations (that they complain they’re not fit enough to really enjoy) and other optional expenses and concentrating on paying down their debts to the point they don’t *need* to work – they just say “I’ll need to work until I die” and keep on spending. I think their “retirement plan” is to leave their creditors holding the bag when they go.

      Seeing the choices they’ve made (saying “I had no choice” while spending more than a third of your income on optional items still counts as a choice – a bad one) has greatly influenced how I view and handle money.

      My wife and I have always been slightly Mustachian – live below our means, save and invest, etc. And cheap outdoor activity (hiking in our case) as our favorite recreational activity. We should have our house paid off soon, and with the last kid out of college be able to move those monthly cash flows into investments. Currently, we’re only investing a bit more than 20% of our gross income, but we’ve been at that percentage for the last several decades.

      The majority of our investments are in tax-advantaged accounts – since we’re already close to the age for no-penalty withdrawals we’re pretty well committed to working the few remaining years. Since I like my work, so I’ll probably work a few more years past that age while squirreling away as many more little green employees as I can. But that’s the key phrase – “since I like my work”. Knowing that pretty soon it’ll be a choice rather than a necessity makes a huge difference in job satisfaction.

      Isn’t that the key point? Decide what lifestyle works for you, eliminate unnecessary distractions and unneeded expenses, then figure out what’s needed to achieve your goal. Lifestyle hint: unless you’re working, a cruise or international vacation is *never* a necessity. Unless your job requires it (hint: almost none do) you don’t *need* a huge wardrobe of formal wear, closets full of shoes, luxury cars . . .

      It doesn’t even mean you always need to give up potentially costly indulgences like an occasional coffee-shop coffee, or buying a lottery ticket, or micro brew beer, or buying an imported cigar. It does mean that you should *think* about it every time you spend that money and decide that yes, this time, you can afford the momentary pleasure without compromising your long-term goals.

      Reply
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    Carrie July 14, 2016, 8:35 am

    Whether one enjoys their job or not is NOT The point. Lynne may live to work, but what happens in the likely event that she will grow old, become disabled or have an accident that will (at least short-term) make it impossible for her to earn at your current income?

    Life happens. To deny that is to deny reality.

    Reply
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      lurker July 16, 2016, 10:58 am

      or her job or boss changes and she is bagged like some old groceries……corporate world is pretty ruthless in getting rid of older workers….even though it is “illegal”

      Reply
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    Swish February 20, 2018, 12:29 pm

    In Canadian we call it “strawpeople”

    Reply
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  Aaron July 13, 2016, 5:57 pm

  Another issues: If you aren’t self-employed in an eternal industry, you end up subject to a lot of risk. Random physical injury, company-wide layoffs, or industry upheaval make this a way riskier plan than mustache style independence. We all have certain things we value more than others, but the point is with a reasonable application of badassery, you can have both.

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  Simon Kenton July 13, 2016, 6:17 pm

  My old boss had mild sciatica and I invited him to come to the gym in the office basement. I knew a couple simple asanas which would relieve and possibly cure his condition. He got the weird look and said, “Uh. Like, stretching? Yoga?! I’d rather have the operation.”

  He won. End of conversation. Lower end of his spine is all fused up now. “…many of us would rather die at our desks with a mountain of debt rather than have to hang out our laundry to dry.” Lynne, you win.

  Reply
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  Frugal Bazooka July 13, 2016, 11:20 pm

  lmao! Someone once stated that if everyone behaved frugally, there would be no one to prop up the economy, the stock market, the job market…blah blah blah…and hence extreme frugality was a fools game.

  Even with a blueprint to throw off the shackles of the 9-5 rat hole race, some folks would rather not. I’m personally thrilled because we’re always gonna need gammas, deltas and epsilons to, you know, do stuff that needs to be done.

  So you see kids…there will ALWAYS be people willing to die at their desk doing a lot of work, working for someone else because, being free is a lot of work.

  lmao!!

  Reply
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  chc4444 July 14, 2016, 2:37 am

  Wow Lynne, it’s obvious to me that you’ve never hung out your laundry. I hate housework but I love hanging out the laundry. I’m outside in the sunshine with fresh smelling cloths hanging them in an orderly way. I find it very meditative. It’s quiet and peaceful and one of my favorite things.

  Reply
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    Dave July 15, 2016, 1:13 pm

    I agree–we lived in Bavaria for a couple years and most of the Germans in the village hung out their duvets almost daily. Houses always smelled like fresh mountain air.

    Reply
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      lurker July 16, 2016, 11:00 am

      exactly right…nice colorado air for señor badass of this blog

      Reply
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    Odessa July 22, 2016, 10:15 pm

    I use what I call a ‘solar dryer’. It never breaks down (unless it rains), uses no electricity, needs no warranty, and it’s free other than the cost of the cloths racks or lines. I like using racks. My clothes last forever and don’t get that static cling that I hate so much. I can position the racks how I want. In direct sunlight or under the porch roof. I also use a big bush for linens and whites. The combination of chlorophyl and sunlight gets whites whiter. No need for bleach. I also hate doing housework, but hanging out your laundry is so easy. I agree that it is meditative and the added bonus is that your clothes are so soft and smell great!

    Reply
• 

  margaret July 14, 2016, 11:26 am

  Troll level: OVER 9000

  Reply
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  JT July 14, 2016, 11:54 am

  It’s funny, because Lynne’s comment (“you’re not REALLY retired”) is something I also get from time to time. My friends and acquaintances see how many projects I do (currently building, myself, by hand, a 12×16′ tiny house on some land I own) and exclaim that I surely cannot be retired!

  Well, that’s true if your definition of “retired” is “never leaving the house or earning a dime again”. But that isn’t my definition, nor is it the norm anymore. I can’t help if people keep offering me money to do stuff I legitimately enjoy. To me, it’s retirement because I don’t NEED the money. My investments cover my living expenses. It doesn’t mean I never earn any more money. It just means I can always say no. Freedom.

  Reply
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  Aimee July 14, 2016, 12:03 pm

  Lynne, you do have a point. There are people like you and kudos to you for finding happiness in that. My father is like that. He’s only retiring in January at age 69. His whole like was his handyman job. It’s where he got out and talked to people, met new people, learned new things and had a purpose in life. He doesn’t have any friends in real life, no real hobbies, never any interest in traveling or venturing out.

  However, in the past few years, he now has a grandkid and his children have houses he can help take care of – fix things, build things, do things he loves. He is choosing to retire to spend time with people he loves and because he can now find happiness in something other than his work. He was never a big spender but he and my mom live a comfortable life – never had made a lot of money as a salary during the years.

  I on the other hand, hope to retire as early as possible or at least cut back hours at some point. Best of luck to you at your desk for life. If you change your mind and want to retire early, hang those clothes on the line! :)

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  LateFIBloomer July 14, 2016, 1:00 pm

  Lynne didn’t know that MMM’s income is $400K+/year…. Yep. Right now, even without a “real” job :)

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  Amanda July 14, 2016, 1:45 pm

  I see part of Lynne’s point. I am a working mom by choice because being with my children 24/7 would drive me and probably them insane. I love my kids more than life, but I also enjoy my job and having regular interactions with adults.

  That being said, when we are FI I will probably only work part time and chose the projects I work on more selectively. And by then my children will all in be in school, haha.

  As far as hanging clothes out to dry, there is always a happy medium. Typically I just dry them in the dryer cause my time is worth more than the electricity. But when we were doing cloth diapers for my two oldest kids, we found that it would take something like 3 hours to dry those suckers and leave the house smelling like hot baked pee. So line drying those made sense, it took less time, everything ended up smelling better and the sun would naturally bleach those things. (for the third kid we switched to disposable diapers since the time cost of cloth became too high) Now I am back to using the dryer, but I do hope to switch to a gas dryer in the future to bring the cost down and to be kinder to the environment.

  So I don’t think Lynne should dismiss MMM suggestions and should give these things a try. But then take into account the time cost, health cost and financial cost before deciding whether they are worth it or not.

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  Steven July 15, 2016, 12:48 pm

  “I guess you have to make your point, but I find it rather closed minded to not acknowledge that many of us would rather die at our desks with a mountain of debt rather than have to hang out our laundry to dry.”

  This is actually a really scary statement because while if we look at it in a bigger picture I think many people have chosen to do just that. Take out the words “rather than have to hand out our laundry to dry” and insert a few of these:

  *Sell my expensive car
  *Not have a $600 cell phone
  *Eat out every night of the week
  *Buy your “dream home” that’s absurdly expensive

  That’s the America we live in today. I think it’s great that MMM and so many personal finance bloggers out there bring a different lifestyle choice to our attention. It’s fun to bike to work or cook your own food or spend some time at the park and it turns out that all of those things are not only fun but cost much less money than alternatives and gives those like MMM or myself the option to spend/save in areas that we prefer, like a craft beer or vacation. We don’t need the mountain of debt and so many of us who read and follow MMM know that the chain can be cut from the desk and into the sun filled skies of today.

  I could go on but I will not, instead I’m going to go outside and get some sunshine. Have a great weekend!

  Reply
• 

  TheHappyPhilosopher July 15, 2016, 1:08 pm

  It is not an either/or decision Lynne. You can life a fantastic life AND create the freedom in your life. That’s the whole point. If you are in debt and forced to work until you die you are a slave, plain and simple. You may be a happy slave but a slave none the less.Spend money on the things you love, eliminate spending on the things that don’t add value, that is the point of this post. The specifics are not important. You are getting caught up in the details instead of seeing the big picture. MMM philosophy is not about deprivation once you look beneath the surface.

  Reply
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  JMC July 16, 2016, 7:06 am

  You don’t feed yourself, maintain your home, or stay physically fit while having a job?

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    Lynne July 21, 2016, 8:44 am

    JMC, I feed myself and my family – I do 95% of the cooking, and we eat an average of 5 dinners a week at home, my husband brings leftovers for lunch. But we go out too, spending upwards of $500 a month on eating out because I can’t/don’t want to cook but also because we like to go out. I enjoy cooking – it’s creative, but when you have to make dinner night after night, it becomes a chore. We maintain our home by paying other people – new roof, painting, etc. And, as far as physically fit, I’ve been mostly dedicated to physical activity, with job and kids having to get up at 5 AM in order to work out before work. I dream of being able to work out at a sane hour like 7 AM, but that wouldn’t happen even if I didn’t work because of the kids.

    But, my point is, to work hard and save so that I can do more work – it’s just not my goal. I understand the big picture – the freedom part of it – that’s all I’m saying is that when I read this post, and MMM confirms it above in his comment on my comment, there is this whole dogma that you have to buy into, it just seems very extreme.

    Reply
    • 

      Amy K July 26, 2016, 12:09 pm

      But reading your latest post Lynne,
      http://www.workingmom2three.com/2016/07/25/what-does-an-unemployed-mom-do/

      I see that you are doing that “other work” as well. Something will always fill our time. You’re volunteering and shuttling the kids around while working on your resume. This post was about nixing all three of those in favor of what Mr Money Mustache finds fulfilling. Different strokes for different folks.

      Reply

FinanceSuperhero July 13, 2016, 3:00 pm

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  Dennis August 13, 2016, 3:53 am

  From my perspective, the MMM theme is all about attitude and gratitude. Both of these can be developed and controlled by the individual. With the right attitude of no need to do what the rest of the world is doing, you don’t give up or delay or miss out on gratification if you learn to just do only those things that have value in bringing pleasure, happiness, and FI. After all, FI is partially a state of mind. Being in the FI mode is truly awesome…….just living life on your terms rather than being in a mode of life dictating what you must do and when.

  Reply

msjaimelee July 13, 2016, 3:24 pm

Mr Crazy Kicks July 13, 2016, 3:25 pm

Daniel July 13, 2016, 3:27 pm

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  Kirstin July 14, 2016, 7:33 am

  If you read a few MMM posts, you’ll start to see that a big part of Mustachianism is thinking outside the box. MMM chose to move to another country in order to build a better, more desirable life. That may or may not be the route you decide on, but living where you do is a choice, just like cable and daily lattes and electric clothes dryers.
  Another option – get involved and lobby for bike infrastructure to be put in place. It’s incredibly cheap compared to building more roads, requires very little maintenance unlike roads and makes communities more pleasant for everyone.

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    Mr. Money Mustache July 14, 2016, 7:48 am

    Yeah Kirstin! To Daniel I would add:

    – If you start with the assumption that biking to work is ALWAYS possible car commuting is NOT an option, amazing situations start to materialize

    – Don’t chalk it up to city size. I have lived in many cities, small and large, and biked in all of them. Even more significantly, even in idyllic Longmont, Colorado I still see about 99% of trips still being taken by cars – even though close to Zero Percent of them actually required cars. The problem is in the humans, not the infrastructure.

    – If you look down at the ground and see pavement, gravel, low vegetation or dirt, you can bike it.

    – I would choose renting and moving occasionally LONG before I would choose car-commuting to work. Hell, I’d gladly leave a country or a hemisphere before I’d give up the freedom to move myself using my own power.

    Disclaimer: I am in a real anti-car zealot mood these days as I read through the book “Happy City” by Charles Montgomery – mind bending stuff.

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      Kathryn July 14, 2016, 10:42 am

      A HUGE part of this is your own attitude. When I first started reading, I worked 12 miles from home in a non-bikeable area(my husband got hit by a car on his bike!) I immediately dismissed it as something I couldn’t do. But then, something happened- I changed my attitude to a “can-do” attitude- I now work from home and don’t have ANY commute. Seriously, once you give yourself an attitude adjustment, anything is possible.

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        lurker July 16, 2016, 11:02 am

        i work from home too and bike everyday in the park to avoid bad car drivers….

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        Danie September 16, 2016, 10:11 am

        This was me, too. I was commuting 25 miles each way to work, and when I started reading MMM, I thought, “Well, that’s all well and good for him. Some of us can’t just change jobs and find one closer to us.”
        And then I thought, “Well, why can’t I??”
        So I did!
        Biking to work started me biking to the grocery store, and to run small errands. The community we live in has things close enough if you just adjust your expectations. Yeah, there isn’t a Target within biking distance, but there are multiple stores that contain the same things as a Target. So it just takes a little extra work, which means I get a little extra workout!

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      Jonathan July 14, 2016, 1:36 pm

      Mmm, I’ve been digging Mikael Colville-Andersen. His consultant company is http://www.copenhagenize.com and his ted talks really with me. I see desire lines and space for cars everywhere!

      Car biases is so strong…

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      WageSlave July 14, 2016, 2:22 pm

      MMM, would you ever be willing to revisit your bike safety post from several years ago? Your thesis was that biking is the safest form of transportation. I feel (as did several other commentators) that there were a number of holes in your arguments. I’m not saying the conclusion is invalid; but the rationale is not convincing.

      I have recently (finally!) began biking in earnest. However, plenty of people still warn me how dangerous it is; they all have a scary story. I’d love to point them to your article and say, “Here’s why I’m not afraid”, but I can’t try to sell someone on something that I’m not buying.

      So I basically say that I take it on faith that if I follow the rules of the road, use good practices (light, helmet), and give riding my absolute undivided attention, that I should be able to avoid disaster.

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        Duncan July 15, 2016, 4:43 am

        Hi Wageslave
        I would say that biking is the best –
        On average the years you will gain through improved fitness will more than balance those lost if squashed
        BUT that is “on average” – even if you do everything right you could still be the poor guy who loses.

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          WageSlave July 15, 2016, 3:31 pm

          But what if you are already reasonably fit through other non-biking means? Consider two clones, both who have good exercise/training habits: they are both in great shape. Additionally, one uses biking as a primary means of transportation, the other uses a car. Will the former really gain that much more fitness or life expectancy by biking?

          I consider physical fitness to be defined along a curve that levels off. The rate of change slows as you approach the plateau. So for the completely sedentary person, yes, biking offers a huge boost in fitness (and presumably life expectancy) over driving. But for the person who is already in excellent shape, taking up biking probably won’t make much of a difference.

          In short: like money, training has decreasing marginal value once you exceed some base level.

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          threewolfmoon July 15, 2016, 4:10 pm

          “Will the former really gain that much more fitness or life expectancy by biking?”

          No, but they will gain more free time (don’t have to go to the gym after commuting) – which after all is the whole point of this article.

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          Danie September 16, 2016, 10:13 am

          There are other benefits, too. Like it’s better for the environment. I don’t have to do dedicated cardio workouts anymore to keep up my cardio fitness because instead of driving a half-hour every day I bike for that time instead. It’s built in and saves time in the long run.

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        Moof November 8, 2016, 2:47 pm

        Having been nearly run over twice just this year (several other too close for comfort incidents as well) on my commutes, while in bike lanes, during broad daylight, while sporting lights and visible clothing, and while in bike friendly Oregon, I am pretty sure biking is less safe for me. I’m still OK taking that risk, as the upsides of improved health, attitude, etc are worth it to me. I don’t fully buy the trade-off being equal between statistically living a little longer and occasional catastrophic death. I also don’t see the point in buying lottery tickets when the per ticket payout exceeds 1:1.

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      scott July 14, 2016, 3:06 pm

      I just walked over and checked out Happy City at the library. I am curious. What are you reading next?

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      Keith November 8, 2016, 2:19 pm

      Some people thinking biking to work is insane, but I would say paying ~$500 each month just to get to a place that is supposed to be paying you is insane. It kind of defeats the whole purpose.

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    Daniel July 14, 2016, 1:10 pm

    I have read a most MMM posts. I am an immigrant myself like MMM, but unlike MMM I am from Eastern Europe and English is a second langauge for me. I came in the US in 1994 as a graduate student, with $500 I borrowed from my uncle. Today between my wife (from the same country as me) and myself we have a net worth of over $1.5MM, and our home is paid off (a fairly modest $300K home). I am not saying all of this to boast. We are where we are because of frugality (not as extreme as MMM, for ex. we just returned from a 24 day family trip in Hawaii), good understanding of technology/finance and math. I.e., a lot of what MMM preaches. My wife also works, and we have 2 school age kids. Moving closer to MY work would mean making HER commute much worse.

    My point about moving closer to work and biking is that once you have a family, with a working spouse, and kids in school (i.e. the typical American family), your options for moving “close to work” are drastically limited. For young, single people, maybe, but with working spouse, kids etc. not really an option.

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      nic July 18, 2016, 8:30 am

      Yes – TRUE, Daniel! I actually live 5 Km to work and hope to never have it nay other way, but I have a fairly secure job that I like and plan to stay in, whereas my hubby has changed companies and jobs about 5 times in the past 18 years. It would not make any sense to uproot our child every time he changed jobs. There is an emotional cost there. It is great if you can have it as a goal, and I have had it as a personal goal and have been lucky to be able to make it happen. It is really not the case that everyone can make it happen though, or else the sacrifices involved are ridiculous. BUT – it is great for people to keep it in mind always to at least inspire their decision where possible!

      Reply

Kent July 13, 2016, 3:27 pm

Rick July 13, 2016, 3:47 pm

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  Yarrow July 15, 2016, 4:12 pm

  No, it is us too. We decided in our first year together 29 years ago, that we didn’t want the traditional American
  lifestyle and the full time jobs it would take to get it. We did have passions though, and both of us found a way
  to make them pay. Fast forward 29 years and we have no debt, bought this house for cash, and the one before it. We have around 500k invested and by following the realtors mantra ‘location, location, location’ we are
  seeing this one close to double what we paid. I love to bake our own bread and we both cook from scratch,
  better food and a major savings. Local good libraries, and the historic great national park systems we are lucky
  to have in this country make low cost road trips our favorite vacation. Love the simple life.

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    Yarrow July 15, 2016, 4:15 pm

    Forgot to say, that we still save about 40% of our income.

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steve poling July 13, 2016, 4:01 pm

Geoff July 13, 2016, 4:06 pm

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  Judy July 16, 2016, 7:08 am

  Thanks for your referral. I will look at the website. I am trying to keep my life simple and I want to pare down. Too much of everything weighs me down. I want to be more in the moment instead of being distracted by stuff. I love all the mmm advice.

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Wilfred July 13, 2016, 4:34 pm

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  Mr. Money Mustache July 13, 2016, 8:02 pm

  Holy Shit Wilfred!

  It’s a good thing you just made that mistake over the safety of the Internet, because steamrolling strangers with one’s own unsolicited opinions on family planning is one of the oldest and most reliable ways to get the door shown to you!

  #1 – No, we abso-fucking-lutely do NOT need any more children. Whoo, what a scary thought for both my wife and I, the thought of going back to the sleepless nights and diaper era after ten years of progress! Not only are we almost to old for it, but our son is absolutely adamant that he is glad not to have any siblings, and I locked in the decision in the doctor’s office quite a few years ago now. There are few things in life I am more certain about than not wanting another baby of my own, as much as I love kids in general.

  #2 – When people have zero or one child, it’s just as valid a choice as any other and should never be shamed or labeled “sad”.

  #3 – I can’t argue with you that fewer children means fewer siblings, aunts and uncles. But the great news is we have an infinite supply of equally valuable humans living all around us.

  In my community, the children play freely in the neighborhood and the parents of these children are all friends – much like in Indian culture, we adults are all like aunts and uncles to each other’s children. The kids grow up close, like brothers and sisters.

  Most families (including my own brother and sisters and parents) these days tend to disperse to live hundreds of miles apart. We value each other greatly, but because we can make close friends with the people who live nearby, life is much richer.

  Related article: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/09/10/great-news-youre-allowed-to-have-only-one-kid/

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    Mia2022 July 13, 2016, 9:55 pm

    Thank YOU MMM! From someone who chose to have zero children…nothing pisses me off more than the Wilfreds of the world. Jeeez…there’s enough humans in the world anyway.

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    Josh July 14, 2016, 6:56 am

    Well said!

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    Wilfred July 14, 2016, 9:05 am

    Dear Mr. ‘Stache,

    Sorry to have touched a raw nerve. When I read your unsolicited opinion about family size, I thought it was OK if we gave ours.

    #1 – Yes, raising children is a giant hassle. Most worthwhile things are. You’ll realize I’m right when you are old. Especially if Junior doesn’t grow up to be that Nobel prize-winner we know he will be, or marry a saintly woman who will care for you in your dotage. (Have noticed daughters are more likely to care for the aged, than sons).

    #2 – Don’t want to make anybody feel bad for having zero or one child if they have medical problems, take a vow of chastity, etc. But for a healthy, prospering family to stop at one, for no reason other than selfishness, is just … sad.

    #3 – Glad you live in a wonderful neighborhood, with an infinite supply of ersatz aunts & uncles. Most neighborhoods aren’t that ideal. Even so, it’s just not the same. If you think they are just like family, ask them to lend you money. These Indians will quickly think you are trying to scalp them, and go on the war-path.

    P.S. I remember the 1970’s, when people were warning about overpopulation. And now, they tell us our economy needs more workers, so we cannot possibly enforce immigration laws. Odd thing, it seems to be the same people making both (contradictory) arguments.

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      Jmac July 14, 2016, 10:24 am

      Oh. My. God.

      #1 – Sure, everyone without a Nobel prize-winning child is screwed. Totally. And by your silly argument, if he has another son the second time around, he’s *still* likely to have nobody to change his adult diapers (waah, waah)!

      #2 – You’re kidding, right? Chastity? And it’s selfish to have one son and take fantastic care of him, providing food, a home, and education? You’re right, by George! What a selfish creature, that MMM!

      #3 – Wonderful – a dash of thinly veiled racism to round things out! And….you’ve got the wrong “Indians”, bud.

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        Jmac July 14, 2016, 10:45 am

        P.S. – You’re confusing overpopulation with economics. While the economy may demand more workers, this is not a signal we should continue to grow our population purposefully. What economies demand (and maybe won’t continue to demand if we shift away from reckless consumerism) and what our planet can handle are two very different things.

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        diana July 14, 2016, 2:07 pm

        agree completely, and would we even call that racism “thinly veiled”? that’s a little generous I think!

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          Jmac July 14, 2016, 2:37 pm

          I was giving him the benefit of “attempted metaphorical use”, but you’re correct of course. His whole post is a mess of half-thoughts, cavalierly blurted at a man who’s only looking to help people.

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      chacha1 July 14, 2016, 11:11 am

      Dear Wilfred, when you come to somebody’s blog, you are soliciting their opinion. There is no reason to read blogs other than to get information and opinions that are not your own.

      So you are free to disagree with what you read on those blogs, and a blog writer is then free to slam the door in your face if you say something offensive, but you can’t honestly say that the blog writer’s opinion was unsolicited. You made the choice to come here.

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        Wilfred July 14, 2016, 12:41 pm

        Dear Chachai,

        I give Mr Moustache credit for not slamming the door in my face, even though he disagreed. He could have simply deleted my comment during Moderation & I wouldn’t have terrified poor Jmac.

        When a blog author allows comments, I assume he is soliciting the opinions of others, & does not want only echo-chamber praise of the identically-minded.

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          Paul July 15, 2016, 5:43 pm

          Dear Wilfrid,

          You’re entitled to your opinion, and I don’t think your sharing on this blog was over the line, but I do think it came pretty darn close. Still, I agree that healthy discussion is facilitated by the exchange of different ideas. I suppose it’s the provocative, know it all language that’s got a few posters in a lather.

          I will assume you’re not a troll looking to get a rise out of people, but that you simply truly believe many of us that age with less than two children, or no daughter, will regret it. I wouldn’t be surprised that a few might. But I’d also guess the majority of us in that boat won’t have any regrets at all :)

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          Helen July 19, 2016, 9:51 am

          Holy Mackerel!
          I am that “sweet girl” that so many parents wish would marry their son. In no way, shape or form would I sign up to be your maid. Forget it. I will not change adult diapers. That vow of “in sickness or in health” applies to my husband only. It is flat out unfair and nasty to try to force this on me. A real, high quality caretaker is paid about 5K/month and you’d better be happy to pay them. Don’t like it? Then you’d better be super mustachian – serious paleo diet, crossfit, walking/biking regularly so that you don’t need that kind of care. By the way, how about my expectation that YOU provide *free* childcare for me at all times?

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      mary w July 14, 2016, 12:53 pm

      Reason one (daughters will take care of you in your old age) seems to cancel out reason two (selfish not to have a second child).

      Interesting to note that in your three reasons you managed to be both sexist and racist…and didn’t even pick the right race!

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      Chris July 14, 2016, 1:00 pm

      I’m completely on board with the spirit of this blog: i.e commuting by bike, learning how to cook frugally, DIY whenever humanly possible, bowing out of mindless consumer society, and focusing on genuine happiness. I’m even on board with drinking less delicious beer (an enjoying the ones you do drink).

      But to not bring future loved ones into the world or have a dog because it doesn’t fit into a retirement plan (I know, its about time, not money)?? Wilfred’s “NEED to have a daughter” was too far, but I’m not too sure if yours is the most expansive notion of love, happiness, or human flourishing either.

      Obviously have as many or few kids as you want (or none at all…I don’t have any), people can be happy or unhappy in countless family scenarios. Problem is, your future self doesn’t know, regardless of the cost-benefit analysis. Happiness and satisfaction can sometimes be in tension. Thus is life.

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      Alexandra July 19, 2016, 2:04 pm

      This sounds like it’s coming from a Christian worldview. Which I happen to share, but over the years have realized doesn’t really work to impose on the values of others. It helped to finally get married at age 33 and have a child of my own to realize that having children is really, really hard. We’re having a second because stopping at one just doesn’t feel right to us, philosophically/spiritually, but I can TOTALLY understand the inclination to do so. I’m at 17 weeks pregnant right now and am really dreading starting all over with an infant, even though I know that the payoff is amazing.

      Maybe if I had started earlier with the project I’d be more inclined to keep going and have a third or fourth child, but at 37 I just can’t bring myself to go through pregnancy again after this go ’round. Maybe we’ll adopt or foster children later on.

      Anyway, there’s so much I agree with on this blog, but the big picture is different from my own understanding of why frugality/simplicity are important. And I’m ok with that. MMM writes really well, he’s entertaining, and this blog is free! So I keep the financial inspiration that I agree with, and go elsewhere for my spirituality.

      For example: generosity plays a much bigger role in my husband and my finances. We are not FI but give about 20% of our income away, where MMM says he waited until he was FI to engage in generosity because it would be a bigger payoff for the charities he wants to support. That makes sense from a worldly point of view but is fairly incompatible with our understanding of what money is for.

      Personally, having one child when having more than one was possible DID feel like a bad trade of immediate pleasure (in the form of better sleep, less money on childcare, and an overall easier life) for long-term awesomeness (in the form of watching siblings grow a relationship, and having more than one kid to love for the rest of our lives) not to mention a spiritual understanding of what my marriage is for. But it’s such a personal decision. I used to be pretty judgy about this issue, but I’m not anymore.

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        Mikey July 25, 2016, 3:04 pm

        Just out of curiousity, could you elaborate on comment about your “understanding of what money is for”? It seems to that MMM makes sense both from a worldly sense (Of course, the only way that giving money to charity makes sense at all in a strictly worldly sense is if you get some kind of selfish benefit from it – ie: pride, a feeling of accomplishment, improved reputation etc…) and from a spiritual sense. In my view money is simply a tool to accomplish goals, material and more altruistic. Presuming that more money means that a given charity can accomplish more good (of course, there is a time-money trade-off and some charities can accomplish a heck-of-a-lot on a shoestring budget, but even that is a practical, not an ideological, consideration), it makes sense to me to delay “gratification” even in charitable giving.

        I’m in no position to consider any major charitable donations at the moment, as I’m still 23, making $15/hr at a summer job, and paying for tuition, but I’d still like to hear other’s thoughts on this.

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    Baron July 14, 2016, 1:17 pm

    I am going to have to call you out on this comment for being complainypants:

    “thought of going back to the sleepless nights and diaper era after ten years of progress”

    Those were moments to become stronger not some sort of horrible choice you made.

    But I do agree, family choice is person an not subject to a “must” requirement. People should be open about the family and choose what is best for them. i

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      Mr. Money Mustache July 14, 2016, 5:02 pm

      Calling out Mr. Money Mustache is always fair game. But here’s the definition of complainypants for the purpose of this blog:

      Complaining that you CAN’T achieve something that you really want to achieve (wealth, early retirement, fitness, even riding a bike to work), because YOU don’t have all the advantages that the author did (being gifted with healthy genetics, happening to live in Longmont, CO, etc.)

      When it comes to having kids, sure, I am pointing out some of the negatives of babies, but it is not complainypants because I genuinely do NOT want any more kids. I’m not running from the hardship of babies despite the desire for more kids – I just think my one splendid lad is plenty for me.

      Now in OTHER ways, I definitely exhibit complainypants behavior – for example I do want to publish a book, and I’d love to have a popular educational YouTube channel sort of like VSauce. But then I claim that I don’t have time because I’m busy raising my boy.

      Meanwhile, plenty of other men are great fathers AND get much more done in their hobbies/careers/whatever than me. I am thus using fatherhood as an excuse to not become better at time management, which is sort of complainypants.

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        Paul July 15, 2016, 6:07 pm

        You’re a funny guy. Obnoxiously rude for entertainment’s sake, but straight up, can look in the mirror and honestly critique yourself. Thanks for the insight, newfound lingo, and educational amusement.

        I like the minimalist Stoicism mentality, and the sarcastic mockumentary commentary that accompanies it. I read somewhere (either one of your earlier posts, or a link to someone else’s post) that you gave a talk at a blog conference advising that bloggers make their posts personal, a conduit for their own personality. I think that’s what makes your posts fun, at least for me. I especially love the raging indignation toward Comcast :)

        Thanks again, look forward to more posts, further gems from the community here to apply to my own life, and the sheer entertainment value, which is already paid for through my monthly internet payment :)

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    steve poling July 15, 2016, 5:46 am

    As a child my parents would often take us kids to visit Uncle Joe and Aunt Monnie. It was a bit confusing to learn that they were not siblings of either parent, but older friends/mentors of my parents who adopted us kids as nephews/nieces. Fast forward a generation and my friend Ted assumed the role of Uncle Theo to my kiddos. The common element was that both intentional aunts/uncles were childless or unmarried. Wilfred has a point that your lad will benefit from more extended family. I suggest you recruit some non-biological/intentional aunties and uncles at least to provide an example the lad will recall when he’s a parent. Or import some cousins from Canada…

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    Ryan July 15, 2016, 6:39 am

    My wife is an only child and has a small extended family. Since she didn’t grow up with little ones around she doesn’t have the drive to have a child. She also is able to make very objective observations about her peers when they complain about their children and associated direct/indirect expenses. Apparently she gets quite a bit of unsolicited advice about our lack of children and these people can turn downright nasty when she comments objectively.

    I believe that there are too many people, especially those that don’t support themselves. Unfortunately I have employees that speak openly about having children to increase welfare receipts, as well as cultural pride about having many children with different women. This pushes us even further towards adoption.

    I believe that there are children out there that need our help and that adoption will not only enrich our lives with someone to take care of me later (What’s up Wilfred!), but will do my part to deal with overpopulation.

    If you want to see something funny, tell someone that you think you are going to adopt a three year old instead of having a child. Watch their face and listen to what they say next, amazing. But, you haven’t even tried? Why would you want to do that?. . . . . .

    Side note: I don’t understand how people cannot see that having two people continually make three will become unsustainable quickly? Or are they special, or do they just not care?

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      RelaxedGal July 27, 2016, 10:48 am

      Definitely adopt a 3 year old. The larval stage is the worst, skip it if you can.

      This is coming from someone who wanted 2 kids (I have a sibling) and my husband only wanted one. That first year strengthened his resolve and brought me around. We are a 1 child family, and Thank God we’re past those early months/years. It got better every month (still does, and she’s 5 1/2) but 2 1/2-3 is where I said “Yes, I could handle 2, if they started out like this.” Being able to communicate their needs is HUGE.

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    MrFrugalChicago July 15, 2016, 12:16 pm

    You are totally right, and I am making a similar 1 kid decision.

    The bad thing is from a species standpoint.. people like us will contribute less to the gene pool than the overweight, drug addicted people on welfare who have 15 kids. So over time, we will die out, and the welfare kiddie farms will rule :(

    This is literally the only reason I feel bad for 1 kid. I am leaving the human gene pool in a slightly worse place than when I was born.

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      Ryan July 17, 2016, 10:47 am

      This is the basic premise of the movie idiocracy, which is laid out at the beginning of the film. After watching it I cannot help but see it EVERYWHERE.

      I figure that maybe we will adopt two children in time and then will have had a positive impact on the world and offset two other couples that had three children.

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      Steven July 22, 2016, 10:53 am

      I thought it, you said it.

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      DuckReconMajor September 16, 2018, 5:38 pm

      I’m sorry but I feel the need to call out this nonsense as it’s completely antithetical to the blog’s message. If it were an issue of “superior genes” then there would be no need for MrMoneyMustache.com

      It’s also one of my many qualms with Wilfred’s comment: doing a force-copy of yourself instead of changing someone else’s mind does not count as making the world a better place!

      Reply
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  James July 13, 2016, 10:16 pm

  This is super dumb. Studies have shown that only-children are better emotionally adjusted and have better outcomes as adults than their peers with siblings.

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  Jmac July 14, 2016, 8:35 am

  Well, that was terrifying. Wilfred, I’d encourage you to remember that the decision to have children (nevermind how many) is a deeply personal one. It’s a lifelong commitment and nobody *NEEDS* to have more kids than they already do, whether that number is zero or ten. Some people want no kids, some want a single child and others want to start a basketball team. You are free to decide what works best for your family (and finances), as is everyone else.

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  Alison July 14, 2016, 12:13 pm

  I can think of a lot of sad things in this world, one of them being your extremely limited world view. I’m certainly not sad about being child free, nor is it a selfish action to decide not to have children.

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  Aimee July 14, 2016, 12:28 pm

  Oh man! I didn’t realize how sad my life was without children. I better hope my FU money lasts long enough to get me into a top notch old age home where I can wither away to nothingness without family or friends to care for me.

  Reply

PandaBear July 13, 2016, 4:40 pm

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  Pablito July 13, 2016, 6:05 pm

  I know what you mean. I don’t have kids, but I did get married last year. Before, if I missed a night out with the boys, it seemed like a big loss. Now, I can’t be out every night anyway (despite having a very understanding wife) because I’d never get to see the misses! She isn’t much for going out late, so I wind up spending time at home with her having a different kind of fun.

  Reply

HenryDavid July 14, 2016, 1:34 am